DaptoFunlandGuy

each offers a different experience, one is an amusement park... a conglomeration of rides of varying degrees of insanity designed to give you a rush, and make some money in the process. The other is a THEME park, and the single word difference in the description makes all the difference. the theming is what makes the park. You said the amusement parks are more personifying, and that the Disney parks are not "real"... and thats the main point - a theme park is there for you to forget your troubles... and escape to a world where everything is "good". there are no gang wars, shootings and stabbings and violent street crime in a place that is literally out of this world. I visited Disneyland in 1996, and to be honest, when we were inside the park, we could not see anything outside the park walls but sky. It was very easy to forget that on the other side of the walls was the bustling LA traffic. Theme Parks are a place to escape, have fun and forget about life for a while. Amusement Parks do not allow a patron to do so to the same extent. I do not think the two can be compared, because they are so very different in concept and design.

i think the replies from Bus and Joz sum it up well. Adam your arguments make a good point but are nowhere near realistic or practical. Try this - go to the next show you have - i'd say go to the Sydney Royal Easter show, but that would be difficult, but up where you are it should be easy since everyone in Queensland gets a day off to go to the Brisbane show... Now go to the carnival section. I have no idea how big the brisbane carnival is, but it would have to be similar in size to Sydney... Stand right next to the station of a coaster, wild mouse or whatever, and listen to the trains coming out of the station. Pick one that had a distinctly different noise when it is despatched, then concentrate really hard on something else. You can't operate the ride, so try reading a passage from a book or magazine out loud. I say this because reading out loud engages hearing, speech and sight, which is the same thing a ride op engages. Do this for 10 minutes, and without actually looking at the track and following the car, try to pick when this SPECIFIC car comes back into the stationgets despatched again, without losing your place or slowing down your reading out loud. I assure you it is very difficult. I used to be a speech coach and vocal analyst, and to be able to do something like that, in the midst of all the different blaring music, screams, other ride noises, general background noise, and all the rest, it takes a lot of concentration and a lot of training to be able to tune into that one specific noise. The one thing I disagree with in Bussy's post there, is that he says he would close the entire ride. With BTMRR, it doesnt need to be shut down, the train only needs to be shunted off to the service track. On Bush Beast, this is a massive undertaking that must be done by maintenance themselves. On BTMRR, it can be done by the operators in charge of the ride, in a few minutes. I dont think any further discussion on this is warranted. Adam, you and I have thrown arguments back and forth on this subject, with one or the other conceding points here and there. Joz agrees, that the amendments to the manual will not really make much of a difference. Bussy agrees, that he would allow the train to complete its cycle, before removing it from service. I AGREE - that if there were signs of a catastrophic failure, I would not hesitate in E-Stopping the ride, but the point is, there were no signs. the noise was not a sign of a catastrophic failure, only a fault. As we have heard already, a "fault" warning on Demon was something that was regularly ignored by experienced operators, who knew the system to be too frazzled and unreliable to trust. Now that you have the information from the "experts" you asked for, do you now agree?

It is arguable that Bounty's Revenge had a redundant safety system. It is highly possible that the lapbars on Bounty are enough to keep you in the ship, but having said that, again, a person is smart, but people are stupid, and if you were to get an idiot that kept their knees higher up when you lowered the lap bars, then that system would not be effective. I think if anything, the seatbelts were a little redundant, i mean, if the lap bars and the chest harnesses failed, the seatbelts should keep you in your seat, but a lap belt is very easy to come out of, particularly when you're hanging upside down... But as i said, while its arguable, im sure that it was necessary. Taking the incident of the operator who forgot to apply the chest harnesses, and subsequently lost his job, the guests were still ok when they got back down, but only because the lap bars did their job effectively... if the lapbars had've given way, he could have had a few mushed guests there too.

yes but what i mean is that in typical Sunway fashion, the powers that be at wonderland were aware that anything that could be done to save a buck would be helpful and praised by Sunway, so lets only paint 66% of the gondolas and save some more money to throw onto Sunway's Pile...

ive never heard of LIM's being used on a flume drop..? as far as the metal plate on the front, I would think that it would be the mouting plate for the front buffers, to stop the boat ramming the boat in front in brake chutes and station runs, and also to provide a chock for the lift? Most flumes I have seen have used a drive belt, rather than a drive wheel. If the drives on this are your standard tyre drive, then it is most likely doing to be a direct drive system, which would wreak havoc on the motors. Flumes, such as Sea World's Viking's Revenge only use propulsion systems in the flat spots such as the station and the lift hill, and they are rather large and flat drive belts, nearly the width of the boat itself, with a raising bar at the front (could be what the metal plate is for) to lift the train up, to reduce the motions from the rushing water. who knows? probably best to wait for more info from Mack or the park itself...

indeed... oops. lol. i should have realised - keeping one set white, meant they only had to repaint 66% of the carriages, not the whole hog... typical frickin sunway...

Willsy, while respecting your opinion on metallurgy, the quote regarding the eiffel tower tends to explain our theory. You work with metal, but have you worked with a metal structure that is over 210 feet tall, and about 200 centimetres (or maybe a little more) diameter, hollow, with moving parts running up and down the outside AND inside of the structure, a lot more weight on top of it, on top of a big exposed hill out in the elements? Get a balloon, and apply weight to the top of it. which way does the balloon expand? Get a bottle of water, filled to the cap, screw the cap on tightly and freeze it, lying on its side... which part of the bottle breaks first under the pressure? When something expands, it will expand in the direction of least resistance. As there is 1 atmosphere (sea level) of air all around the tower, but there is the REST OF the tower above it, and on top you have the hat, electronics, transmission gear and a lot of other stuff, you have 1 atmosphere plus - lets say 1-2 tons. the direction of least resistance would be outward. Now heated metal expands, and expanded metal is less dense, and therefore more pliable than cold or non-expanded metal, and is therefore more flexible. the cooled side would remain rigid, while the heated side would expand OUTWARDS and the walls would be weaker because of their enhanced flexibility, which would cause the tower to lean TOWARDS the sun.

Once the operators reached a decision that the train was unsafe, they made the decision to remove the train immediately. Unfortunately, at the time of the decision, the train was already underway. As they had no indication that there was something catastrophically wrong with it, they felt it was in the best interests of operation not to e-stop the ride. An E-Stop is used only when they feel that a situation exists that is mortally unsafe, eg "if i dont press this button now, someone could be seriously injured". The indications they had were nothing but a train making a little bit of noise, which cannot be translated to "serious injury". Retrospect is always 20/20, but E-Stopping a ride like thunder mountain means there are 4 trains out there on that track of over 800 metres in length, which will need to be manually unloaded safely from various positions around the track, shut down, a maintenance visit paid to the attraction before it could be restarted. this means delays of more than 2 hours IF THERE IS NOTHING WRONG. Seriously, i tell you that the operators had no indication of a CATASTROPHIC FAULT. a noisy wheel is not necessarily something that is going to cause a catastrophy. Granted, it DID cause one, but the operator's judgement call at the time was that the train has already made 12 cycles. If it can make 12, then it can make 13, as nothing has happened yet, so for the sake of a 4 minute cycle, we get it back to the station and get it taken out of service, in the best interests of our guests, we will inconvenience them by 4 minutes, rather than what could be well over 4 hours. Should they have made this call? Yes. an E-Stop would have saved this life. Was it reasonable to assume that someone would die if they did not? No. it wasn't. Will the manual amendment save another life? probably, but if the noise is noticed AS IT DEPARTS the station, what do they do? there is no indication in the DOSH report that says if an employee is to E-Stop the attraction if they detect a noise upon despatch, or whether they are to allow the train to complete the circuit prior to tagging the train. In the interests of lower inconvenience, and the potential for operators to be incorrect, i would say the latter, allowing the train to complete its cycle before being tagged. There is nothing to say the operators did not act within the best interests of themselves, the park, and the guests, except for the dead body. There is no evidence that the operators made a misjudgement in their actions, only that the judgement came too late to save a life. And the question still remains unanswered - whether they felt the noise was serious enough to remove it before it was despatched on cycle number 13. the report seems to suggest that they did not feel it was serious enough until after it was despatched, which was too late. These amendments may save a life, in this situation, it might have, OR it might not have. there is no way to tell unless you are the operator or the investigator in this incident, and that is all that remains to be said on this issue.

Funny that in less than a year after the accident, another similar accident occurred on big thunder mountain railroad Anaheim.

POUNDS HEAD AGAINST BLUNT OBJECT Read the DOSH report you frickin moron. not just the bits you think will win you the argument. The tag system IS THE CORRECT PROCEDURE. MAINTENANCE WERE NOT USING THE CORRECT PROCEDURE (tagging) WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE ACCIDENT. when an operator suspects a train or passenger car is dangerous, IT IS YELLOW TAGGED AND REMOVED FROM SERVICE AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DO EVERY TIME. If space mountain had ONE car faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO Is Space Probe had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Splash Mountain had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Big Thunder Mountain Railroad had one train faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO What would they do? remove it from service and affix a yellow tag. how is applying a yellow tag promoting loss of life? those three statements above are all contradictory. Your argument is well thought out but it is extremely flawed. Have you been listening to the other people who posted here? Bussy commented that an unusual sound should be reported immediately, but other than that he agreed the fine line an operator had to walk on was there, and angry guests and all the rest.... I know it would be a first for you if you did so, but did you listen to what Richard had to say? For crying out loud you are as thick as two short planks. there is no getting through to you, on any subject, no matter what it is, because you must be correct in everything you do. thats why you have the piss blind arrogance to have that little statement in your damn signature. ffs. you're wrong. deal with it.

not necessarily. a non-expanded piece of metal will have more rigidity, and prevent the tower from leaning that way, however the expanded metal will be weaker. it will not push up, causing the tower to lean the other way, rather it will become weaker, and allow more flexibility, allowing the tower to lean towards the weakened side because of the loss of rigidity in the metal. Just because it expands, it doesnt mean it will expand UP.

the tagging procedures mentioned in (5) were in discussion of the maintenance crew, not the operators. (4) does not talk of the operator's training, but rather a WRITTEN instruction in the OPERATIONS MANUAL. there is no description in the report of what the AUDIT procedure was (7). Whether this was done or not, it would not have prevented the accident, because the audit procedure would not have found bolts loose and untightened on a maintenance procedure done the night before the accident. The maintenance work was signed off by a technician who did not perform the work. He was not to know the work had not been done, and it is the fault of the maintenance worker who signed off on the job, as well as the worker who did not tighten the bolts in the first place. im talking common sense here. if a ride starts emitting sparks, does an operator need a WRITTEN INSTRUCTION IN A MANUAL to know its not proper to operate the ride? No. The same applies for a strange noise coming from the train. It is obvious that the operators do not NEED the written instruction to know a bad noise is something that should be yellow tagged.... it is obvious, because the operators DID THIS without the written instruction, it was just one cycle too late. The written instruction was added simply because there was some confusion when the issue was discussed in the inquiry. The cycling of the trains was not something that was necessarily done, as I am under the impression that this would be done at the beginning of the day, to test all brakes, and mechanics in the ride, not to test the train itself, and as discussed, even if train number 2 had been cycled once before being put into service, it would not have saved a life. the person who died - yes, but another would have taken his place based on the order of the queue line. I am awaiting the reply of the DOSH at this point in time.

the heat would cause the metals to expand, but im not inclined to leave it at that, as the heat would expand the metal, but it doesnt explain why the tower itself LEANED towards to sun. Giving it further thought, its quite possible it might simply be that it leans towards the side that the sun is on because that side is heated while the other side is in shadow, leaving a bendable side closer to the sun and a rigid side away from the sun, which would cause it to tip towards the sun... yeah - thats probably an ockhums razor solution to the problem.

the majority of the ride is purple, with the gondolas an alternating yellow and purple. it seemed more modern than the tired red white and blue of 1980's USA.

Actually, Disney received a RECOMMENDATION from the DOSH to make the amendment. In the same list of recommendations, they also suggested that trains be cycled once when entered into service, before guests are loaded on it. Now this catastrophic failure occurred on the 13th run, not the first, so what good would cycling once do? not much, but it is an extra safety measure. So is the extra line in the manual - But the DOSH recommendations DID NOT include a requirement of RETRAINING the cast operators, only the MAINTENANCE team I used to work in an organisation that went by the mantra of "the best way discovered, so far..." Just because something works, it doesnt mean it cannot be improved on. This line in the manual just helped to outline and specify a procedure that is obviously common sense. I say common sense, because the cast members DID what this procedure currently outlines, they just did it one cycle too late. I won't go further into detail with this one for you Adam, because over several topics on these forums, it appears you have a lack of grasp of the concept of common sense. Thanks for the compliment, err... i think... Adam, Some of your arguments are stupid. yet some are worse. The use of the LIM's on BTM's station area allows the trains to be shunted into the service siding only from the rear of the station platform, not the staging area. With another train behind it (which there definitely would have been, as that is generally how it would have been by the time it was despatched) it would be impossible to shunt this train into the siding without it doing another cycle. Further to this, information which was brought to my attention AFTER I made the original statement, indicates the cast members elected to yellow tag the train AFTER it left the station. I would assume that this means the noise was seen as being dangerous as it left the station, and was therefore beyond recall. It was acted on in the appropriate way, just not soon enough to avoid the disaster. Unless you are one of the operators charged with the operation of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad during September 2003, you have no possible way of knowing WHEN the noise was detected. Even the DOSH detailed in their report, that the noise was heard "some time between when the train was brought into service and when the accident occurred". As said just above, it might have only just been heard above all the screams and other park noises as it was dispatched on that fatal 13th cycle, which by then was too late. The ride will not close, it will simply lose a train to the service siding, so stop talking about it CLOSING ffs... i think we can direct this question to Bussy or Daniel. Lets say they detect a noise coming from Gondola 2 on Space Probe as it is despatched, or one of the rafts on snowy appears to be faulty in some way as it leaves the despatch area. There is no indication in the manual of what you should fo.... Bussy, Daniel, in those two situations, what do you do? (i have used these two situations because both rides contain numerous passenger vehicles which can operate independantly of one another.) also, your link to the DOSH doesnt work.

as far as I am aware Gazza, the same way the sea is influenced by the magnetic pull of the two poles and the sun causing low tide and high tide, I would assume that this would be relatively the same sort of thing. it is an effect that occurs with many structures that are tall, but not necessarily hevily reinforced... namely towers without lots of cabling support.

and in regards to the interviewing of the cast members operating the ride: The operators were not stupid. they knew what to do. They didnt need a line in a manual to tell them what to do. Nobody can tell from that report when the noise was detected. it might have only been detected on the 12th cycle... who knows? YOU certainly don't Adam... Now, stop being a disagreeable little twat that thinks he knows everything because so far the experts and non-experts alike have proven you wrong on all but one occasion. Particularly in this discussion, there is not one point you have brought up that cannot be discounted by factual evidence. Maintenance Screwed Up. Will that stop me from getting on one of the best themed coasters in the world? No. NOW SHUT THE HELL UP BEFORE I PUT A BOOT IN YOUR ASS Wheres daniel? ordinarily he would have piped up at this little twat a long time ago...

Good. Agreed. Case Closed. because until now there never really was a need for this to be documented. If i wanted to write a manual on the operation of a mechanical device, i cannot conceive of every possible situation arising until it has happened. i can come up with a lot of "what ifs" but im not going to think of every single thing until it happens, and i can devise a means to fix it. owwww boy... bad move. bottom line adam is that it is YOU that doesnt understand. There was no reason prior to the accident to close the entire ride. the ride design allows for operators to take trains in and out of service in a matter of minutes. there was no evidence that anything was wrong with any other train, and an unexpected closure of the ride in the middle of park operation would deliver some very angry guests to the queue line, guest relations office, not to mention peeved patrons who then take their anger out in other areas of the park. what you fail to understand is that the procedure of "YELLOW TAG" (ging) is that a ride vehicle with a yellow tag is deemed unsafe for operation and taken out of service IMMEDIATELY. upon the train's return to the station on the 13th cycle, the train would have had a yellow tag applied, and been immediately shunted off into the storage area, thus taking it out of service, and removing the danger, without needing to close the entire ride. UNDERSTAND? and the various sources all get their info from the same place. Again the original link you listed to another forum source discussing this accident has one of the members talking about the press that came out that day, which dwindled over the hours after the accident as most reporters realised the amount of "conjecture and hearsay" that was being reported. find a dictionary, and look up those two words... As previously discussed, it is unnecessary to shut down an entire ride. If a gondola on Space Probe or Giant Drop is making a funny noise, do they shut down the entire ride, or just the gondola? Your logic scares me sometimes adam. Your logic suggests that if i come into a hospital with a pain in my right hand, the most logical thing to do would be to amputate the arm above the elbow. So your entire argument is along the lines of WHAT IF the policies were in place. WHAT IF I came up to queensland to hunt you down and kill you? The procedures recommened by DOSH were not those recommended to prevent the accident occurring, nor were they made because it was the cause of the incident. During their investigation, they realised a potential flaw in the operations manual, which they suggested be corrected. The news report you listed above, which talks of "operators complaining that no procedure was in place" is reworded alarmist reporting of the media, taken direct from the DOSH report, where it states only that the cast members indicated the manual does not detail a specific procedure in the case of unusual operation. they did not "complain at the inquiry" they just answered the questions of the investigating officer which brought him to the conclusion that there was a deficiency in the manual's language. Which under standard procedures would have prevented the accident had it not happened during the cycle in which they elected to yellow tag it. As discussed, yellow tagging the train IS taking the train out of service, and therefore removing danger removing the train from the track is THE SAME THING as yellow tagging. the operators did the right thing. they are not at fault, nor is disney, as this accident was not forseeable from a simple unusual noise from the train. The operators acted with best judgement that it could possibly have been (as the ride was only just back into service after an overhaul) new parts that need time to burn in, and since the noise had not cleared up within a reasonable amount of time, they elected to take it out of service. Yes, its unfortunate that someone died Yes, it could have been prevented No, the changes to the operations manual would not necessarily have saved this persons life. Yes, the only way it could have been prevented were if maintenance had followed the correct disney procedures from the beginning Yes, it was Maintenance's fault, not disneys. The only factor that caused this accident was a failure of maintenance to understand the procedures that disney had in place. If maintenance followed and knew their procedures, there would not have been a need for cast members to have an amendment to their manuals stating "what to do if..." as if the maintenance procedures were followed, this would never occur. END OF STORY

Precisely. Regardless of what the cast member's training manual said, the accident could have happened with or without the extra lines in the training manual. The quotes you listed detail that Disney was to make an amendment to the manual in regards to "funny noises" as a result of the enquiry. it was not a cause of the accident. The loose bolts on the upstop guidewheel could have failed on the very first cycle, rather than the 13th cycle. If it happened on the first cycle, it would not matter if there was an amendment to the manual. the quote I have listed is the be-all and end-all of the investigation - MAINTENANCE was at fault, and nothing more.

.au.... i agree, but essentially these forums are a place for members to discuss every facet of rides and theme parks. i find the questions tiring sometimes to say the least, but it is what the forums are intended for, and while i find it annoying, I am not about to tell him to stop altogether.

And some further info for you - taken from www.answers.com So further to the 1 in 48 million effort, only 3 were from Park Negligence, and one of those was a cast member, not a guest.

From www.sacbee.com: I rest my case Adam...

Bussy - i'm scared.... you agreed with me on practically every point...... even the one i didnt think you would... and sorry that this isnt anything decidedly meaningful to the current discussion, i just had to point out that i got very scared seeing you agree with me....

i have just viewed the vid you have buzz, and apart from the low quality, it is awesome. i think my vids are clearer (less pixelation) but slower framerates. it was good to see the historic filming of the beast in its early days, and the transparent frame bit you used to put your info in front of video and the like was good. your skills in vid editing are superior to mine, but uniqueness is not something you can claim with this one! lol. not many people can use the Wonderland Park Music in their videos either (lol).... unfortunately it would appear that both the people who have on-ride wonderland footage are able to do so... lmao. The one main difference between your footage and mine is that mine is a forwards-facing-only shot, from the front seat, filmed by my own hand. no different camera angles are used... so we each have good and bad points... i only wish i had of known you were making this one, i could have contributed towards it... nice logos and stuff on the end of it too.

im sure she will be there next time Rappa...