DaptoFunlandGuy

indeed... oops. lol. i should have realised - keeping one set white, meant they only had to repaint 66% of the carriages, not the whole hog... typical frickin sunway...

Willsy, while respecting your opinion on metallurgy, the quote regarding the eiffel tower tends to explain our theory. You work with metal, but have you worked with a metal structure that is over 210 feet tall, and about 200 centimetres (or maybe a little more) diameter, hollow, with moving parts running up and down the outside AND inside of the structure, a lot more weight on top of it, on top of a big exposed hill out in the elements? Get a balloon, and apply weight to the top of it. which way does the balloon expand? Get a bottle of water, filled to the cap, screw the cap on tightly and freeze it, lying on its side... which part of the bottle breaks first under the pressure? When something expands, it will expand in the direction of least resistance. As there is 1 atmosphere (sea level) of air all around the tower, but there is the REST OF the tower above it, and on top you have the hat, electronics, transmission gear and a lot of other stuff, you have 1 atmosphere plus - lets say 1-2 tons. the direction of least resistance would be outward. Now heated metal expands, and expanded metal is less dense, and therefore more pliable than cold or non-expanded metal, and is therefore more flexible. the cooled side would remain rigid, while the heated side would expand OUTWARDS and the walls would be weaker because of their enhanced flexibility, which would cause the tower to lean TOWARDS the sun.

Once the operators reached a decision that the train was unsafe, they made the decision to remove the train immediately. Unfortunately, at the time of the decision, the train was already underway. As they had no indication that there was something catastrophically wrong with it, they felt it was in the best interests of operation not to e-stop the ride. An E-Stop is used only when they feel that a situation exists that is mortally unsafe, eg "if i dont press this button now, someone could be seriously injured". The indications they had were nothing but a train making a little bit of noise, which cannot be translated to "serious injury". Retrospect is always 20/20, but E-Stopping a ride like thunder mountain means there are 4 trains out there on that track of over 800 metres in length, which will need to be manually unloaded safely from various positions around the track, shut down, a maintenance visit paid to the attraction before it could be restarted. this means delays of more than 2 hours IF THERE IS NOTHING WRONG. Seriously, i tell you that the operators had no indication of a CATASTROPHIC FAULT. a noisy wheel is not necessarily something that is going to cause a catastrophy. Granted, it DID cause one, but the operator's judgement call at the time was that the train has already made 12 cycles. If it can make 12, then it can make 13, as nothing has happened yet, so for the sake of a 4 minute cycle, we get it back to the station and get it taken out of service, in the best interests of our guests, we will inconvenience them by 4 minutes, rather than what could be well over 4 hours. Should they have made this call? Yes. an E-Stop would have saved this life. Was it reasonable to assume that someone would die if they did not? No. it wasn't. Will the manual amendment save another life? probably, but if the noise is noticed AS IT DEPARTS the station, what do they do? there is no indication in the DOSH report that says if an employee is to E-Stop the attraction if they detect a noise upon despatch, or whether they are to allow the train to complete the circuit prior to tagging the train. In the interests of lower inconvenience, and the potential for operators to be incorrect, i would say the latter, allowing the train to complete its cycle before being tagged. There is nothing to say the operators did not act within the best interests of themselves, the park, and the guests, except for the dead body. There is no evidence that the operators made a misjudgement in their actions, only that the judgement came too late to save a life. And the question still remains unanswered - whether they felt the noise was serious enough to remove it before it was despatched on cycle number 13. the report seems to suggest that they did not feel it was serious enough until after it was despatched, which was too late. These amendments may save a life, in this situation, it might have, OR it might not have. there is no way to tell unless you are the operator or the investigator in this incident, and that is all that remains to be said on this issue.

Funny that in less than a year after the accident, another similar accident occurred on big thunder mountain railroad Anaheim.

POUNDS HEAD AGAINST BLUNT OBJECT Read the DOSH report you frickin moron. not just the bits you think will win you the argument. The tag system IS THE CORRECT PROCEDURE. MAINTENANCE WERE NOT USING THE CORRECT PROCEDURE (tagging) WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE ACCIDENT. when an operator suspects a train or passenger car is dangerous, IT IS YELLOW TAGGED AND REMOVED FROM SERVICE AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DO EVERY TIME. If space mountain had ONE car faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO Is Space Probe had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Splash Mountain had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Big Thunder Mountain Railroad had one train faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO What would they do? remove it from service and affix a yellow tag. how is applying a yellow tag promoting loss of life? those three statements above are all contradictory. Your argument is well thought out but it is extremely flawed. Have you been listening to the other people who posted here? Bussy commented that an unusual sound should be reported immediately, but other than that he agreed the fine line an operator had to walk on was there, and angry guests and all the rest.... I know it would be a first for you if you did so, but did you listen to what Richard had to say? For crying out loud you are as thick as two short planks. there is no getting through to you, on any subject, no matter what it is, because you must be correct in everything you do. thats why you have the piss blind arrogance to have that little statement in your damn signature. ffs. you're wrong. deal with it.

not necessarily. a non-expanded piece of metal will have more rigidity, and prevent the tower from leaning that way, however the expanded metal will be weaker. it will not push up, causing the tower to lean the other way, rather it will become weaker, and allow more flexibility, allowing the tower to lean towards the weakened side because of the loss of rigidity in the metal. Just because it expands, it doesnt mean it will expand UP.

the tagging procedures mentioned in (5) were in discussion of the maintenance crew, not the operators. (4) does not talk of the operator's training, but rather a WRITTEN instruction in the OPERATIONS MANUAL. there is no description in the report of what the AUDIT procedure was (7). Whether this was done or not, it would not have prevented the accident, because the audit procedure would not have found bolts loose and untightened on a maintenance procedure done the night before the accident. The maintenance work was signed off by a technician who did not perform the work. He was not to know the work had not been done, and it is the fault of the maintenance worker who signed off on the job, as well as the worker who did not tighten the bolts in the first place. im talking common sense here. if a ride starts emitting sparks, does an operator need a WRITTEN INSTRUCTION IN A MANUAL to know its not proper to operate the ride? No. The same applies for a strange noise coming from the train. It is obvious that the operators do not NEED the written instruction to know a bad noise is something that should be yellow tagged.... it is obvious, because the operators DID THIS without the written instruction, it was just one cycle too late. The written instruction was added simply because there was some confusion when the issue was discussed in the inquiry. The cycling of the trains was not something that was necessarily done, as I am under the impression that this would be done at the beginning of the day, to test all brakes, and mechanics in the ride, not to test the train itself, and as discussed, even if train number 2 had been cycled once before being put into service, it would not have saved a life. the person who died - yes, but another would have taken his place based on the order of the queue line. I am awaiting the reply of the DOSH at this point in time.

the heat would cause the metals to expand, but im not inclined to leave it at that, as the heat would expand the metal, but it doesnt explain why the tower itself LEANED towards to sun. Giving it further thought, its quite possible it might simply be that it leans towards the side that the sun is on because that side is heated while the other side is in shadow, leaving a bendable side closer to the sun and a rigid side away from the sun, which would cause it to tip towards the sun... yeah - thats probably an ockhums razor solution to the problem.

the majority of the ride is purple, with the gondolas an alternating yellow and purple. it seemed more modern than the tired red white and blue of 1980's USA.

Actually, Disney received a RECOMMENDATION from the DOSH to make the amendment. In the same list of recommendations, they also suggested that trains be cycled once when entered into service, before guests are loaded on it. Now this catastrophic failure occurred on the 13th run, not the first, so what good would cycling once do? not much, but it is an extra safety measure. So is the extra line in the manual - But the DOSH recommendations DID NOT include a requirement of RETRAINING the cast operators, only the MAINTENANCE team I used to work in an organisation that went by the mantra of "the best way discovered, so far..." Just because something works, it doesnt mean it cannot be improved on. This line in the manual just helped to outline and specify a procedure that is obviously common sense. I say common sense, because the cast members DID what this procedure currently outlines, they just did it one cycle too late. I won't go further into detail with this one for you Adam, because over several topics on these forums, it appears you have a lack of grasp of the concept of common sense. Thanks for the compliment, err... i think... Adam, Some of your arguments are stupid. yet some are worse. The use of the LIM's on BTM's station area allows the trains to be shunted into the service siding only from the rear of the station platform, not the staging area. With another train behind it (which there definitely would have been, as that is generally how it would have been by the time it was despatched) it would be impossible to shunt this train into the siding without it doing another cycle. Further to this, information which was brought to my attention AFTER I made the original statement, indicates the cast members elected to yellow tag the train AFTER it left the station. I would assume that this means the noise was seen as being dangerous as it left the station, and was therefore beyond recall. It was acted on in the appropriate way, just not soon enough to avoid the disaster. Unless you are one of the operators charged with the operation of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad during September 2003, you have no possible way of knowing WHEN the noise was detected. Even the DOSH detailed in their report, that the noise was heard "some time between when the train was brought into service and when the accident occurred". As said just above, it might have only just been heard above all the screams and other park noises as it was dispatched on that fatal 13th cycle, which by then was too late. The ride will not close, it will simply lose a train to the service siding, so stop talking about it CLOSING ffs... i think we can direct this question to Bussy or Daniel. Lets say they detect a noise coming from Gondola 2 on Space Probe as it is despatched, or one of the rafts on snowy appears to be faulty in some way as it leaves the despatch area. There is no indication in the manual of what you should fo.... Bussy, Daniel, in those two situations, what do you do? (i have used these two situations because both rides contain numerous passenger vehicles which can operate independantly of one another.) also, your link to the DOSH doesnt work.

as far as I am aware Gazza, the same way the sea is influenced by the magnetic pull of the two poles and the sun causing low tide and high tide, I would assume that this would be relatively the same sort of thing. it is an effect that occurs with many structures that are tall, but not necessarily hevily reinforced... namely towers without lots of cabling support.

and in regards to the interviewing of the cast members operating the ride: The operators were not stupid. they knew what to do. They didnt need a line in a manual to tell them what to do. Nobody can tell from that report when the noise was detected. it might have only been detected on the 12th cycle... who knows? YOU certainly don't Adam... Now, stop being a disagreeable little twat that thinks he knows everything because so far the experts and non-experts alike have proven you wrong on all but one occasion. Particularly in this discussion, there is not one point you have brought up that cannot be discounted by factual evidence. Maintenance Screwed Up. Will that stop me from getting on one of the best themed coasters in the world? No. NOW SHUT THE HELL UP BEFORE I PUT A BOOT IN YOUR ASS Wheres daniel? ordinarily he would have piped up at this little twat a long time ago...

Good. Agreed. Case Closed. because until now there never really was a need for this to be documented. If i wanted to write a manual on the operation of a mechanical device, i cannot conceive of every possible situation arising until it has happened. i can come up with a lot of "what ifs" but im not going to think of every single thing until it happens, and i can devise a means to fix it. owwww boy... bad move. bottom line adam is that it is YOU that doesnt understand. There was no reason prior to the accident to close the entire ride. the ride design allows for operators to take trains in and out of service in a matter of minutes. there was no evidence that anything was wrong with any other train, and an unexpected closure of the ride in the middle of park operation would deliver some very angry guests to the queue line, guest relations office, not to mention peeved patrons who then take their anger out in other areas of the park. what you fail to understand is that the procedure of "YELLOW TAG" (ging) is that a ride vehicle with a yellow tag is deemed unsafe for operation and taken out of service IMMEDIATELY. upon the train's return to the station on the 13th cycle, the train would have had a yellow tag applied, and been immediately shunted off into the storage area, thus taking it out of service, and removing the danger, without needing to close the entire ride. UNDERSTAND? and the various sources all get their info from the same place. Again the original link you listed to another forum source discussing this accident has one of the members talking about the press that came out that day, which dwindled over the hours after the accident as most reporters realised the amount of "conjecture and hearsay" that was being reported. find a dictionary, and look up those two words... As previously discussed, it is unnecessary to shut down an entire ride. If a gondola on Space Probe or Giant Drop is making a funny noise, do they shut down the entire ride, or just the gondola? Your logic scares me sometimes adam. Your logic suggests that if i come into a hospital with a pain in my right hand, the most logical thing to do would be to amputate the arm above the elbow. So your entire argument is along the lines of WHAT IF the policies were in place. WHAT IF I came up to queensland to hunt you down and kill you? The procedures recommened by DOSH were not those recommended to prevent the accident occurring, nor were they made because it was the cause of the incident. During their investigation, they realised a potential flaw in the operations manual, which they suggested be corrected. The news report you listed above, which talks of "operators complaining that no procedure was in place" is reworded alarmist reporting of the media, taken direct from the DOSH report, where it states only that the cast members indicated the manual does not detail a specific procedure in the case of unusual operation. they did not "complain at the inquiry" they just answered the questions of the investigating officer which brought him to the conclusion that there was a deficiency in the manual's language. Which under standard procedures would have prevented the accident had it not happened during the cycle in which they elected to yellow tag it. As discussed, yellow tagging the train IS taking the train out of service, and therefore removing danger removing the train from the track is THE SAME THING as yellow tagging. the operators did the right thing. they are not at fault, nor is disney, as this accident was not forseeable from a simple unusual noise from the train. The operators acted with best judgement that it could possibly have been (as the ride was only just back into service after an overhaul) new parts that need time to burn in, and since the noise had not cleared up within a reasonable amount of time, they elected to take it out of service. Yes, its unfortunate that someone died Yes, it could have been prevented No, the changes to the operations manual would not necessarily have saved this persons life. Yes, the only way it could have been prevented were if maintenance had followed the correct disney procedures from the beginning Yes, it was Maintenance's fault, not disneys. The only factor that caused this accident was a failure of maintenance to understand the procedures that disney had in place. If maintenance followed and knew their procedures, there would not have been a need for cast members to have an amendment to their manuals stating "what to do if..." as if the maintenance procedures were followed, this would never occur. END OF STORY

Precisely. Regardless of what the cast member's training manual said, the accident could have happened with or without the extra lines in the training manual. The quotes you listed detail that Disney was to make an amendment to the manual in regards to "funny noises" as a result of the enquiry. it was not a cause of the accident. The loose bolts on the upstop guidewheel could have failed on the very first cycle, rather than the 13th cycle. If it happened on the first cycle, it would not matter if there was an amendment to the manual. the quote I have listed is the be-all and end-all of the investigation - MAINTENANCE was at fault, and nothing more.

.au.... i agree, but essentially these forums are a place for members to discuss every facet of rides and theme parks. i find the questions tiring sometimes to say the least, but it is what the forums are intended for, and while i find it annoying, I am not about to tell him to stop altogether.

And some further info for you - taken from www.answers.com So further to the 1 in 48 million effort, only 3 were from Park Negligence, and one of those was a cast member, not a guest.

From www.sacbee.com: I rest my case Adam...

Bussy - i'm scared.... you agreed with me on practically every point...... even the one i didnt think you would... and sorry that this isnt anything decidedly meaningful to the current discussion, i just had to point out that i got very scared seeing you agree with me....

i have just viewed the vid you have buzz, and apart from the low quality, it is awesome. i think my vids are clearer (less pixelation) but slower framerates. it was good to see the historic filming of the beast in its early days, and the transparent frame bit you used to put your info in front of video and the like was good. your skills in vid editing are superior to mine, but uniqueness is not something you can claim with this one! lol. not many people can use the Wonderland Park Music in their videos either (lol).... unfortunately it would appear that both the people who have on-ride wonderland footage are able to do so... lmao. The one main difference between your footage and mine is that mine is a forwards-facing-only shot, from the front seat, filmed by my own hand. no different camera angles are used... so we each have good and bad points... i only wish i had of known you were making this one, i could have contributed towards it... nice logos and stuff on the end of it too.

im sure she will be there next time Rappa...

ok so a number of replies coming here - Buzz... it would be very funny if you were joking, PM with with some further info on it.... Albert - when DPA opened, it contained a thread that has since been removed, called "r-c bashing" and the description of the thread was something along the lines of "tell me all the problems and complaints you have from richard. you can post safely here, i won't delete it, and if Richard does anything to you, ill sort him out" How can you not expect those who are loyal supporters of this site not to be offended by someone who openly asks his members to "bash" Roller-Coaster.com.au, and the site Administrator, someone who by far is very skilled, intelligent, and fair, but also makes his own decisions about his site in regards to who or what is allowed on the site to keep the peace of the majority? As far as errors in programming, in a conversation i had recently with Paul, he detailed to me his extensive programming experience in CGIPHP and Cisco Systems. While im certain thats a crock, as the site programmer and host is not the site administrator, but a different person... As far as contributions, paul has a lot of images of the park in its early days, from members of this site, and his own collections as well. Wonderbuzz has been a big contributor to this sort of media, but as far as I am aware, a lot of people who Paul has approached for permission to use their material on his site said no, because of - 1) the way in which he approached them 2) his previous bad attitude and behaviour towards them, and other members considered to be their friends. Personally, I gave paul a few photos and videos that would be suited for use on his site, unfortunately, he was too immature to retain the friendship we had, and he never asked me for permission to use the material. I assure you if he were to utilise the materials on his site, I would sue both him and the site owner (who is a nice guy) for breach of copyright. Its a concept with limited scope, poor research, and a lack of materials to make it interesting. Richard devotes a lot of his time to researching information. he has set up a network of contacts to be the first with the info, and also makes constant visits to parks, particularly during periods of heavy construction and refurb to give us updates. how long can DEFUNCT PARKS OF AUSTRALIA last? there can only be so many parks in Australia that close down... and even less of those will be parks that have a broad appeal to the wider community, and are able to supply enough information to sustain a conversational topic about it IN that wider community. As far as designing a site, another user is already in the process of doing so, with site testing being done as I type this. To respect Richard's guidelines I will neither identify the member, or the site in question, but only know that with around the same basic availability of information as DPA, this site will be able to sustain itself a lot better than DPA. Apologies for getting off topic... but to get back to it, it will be interesting to get information on the deconstruction of probe. I recall a maintenance worker lost a finger or two when he failed to follow procedure and a magnetic brake fin came too close to another fin, and they clamped together severing finger(s). I wonder if the plc (or whatever it was that Wonderbus posted a while ago) will be replaced or rebirthed after it died by a shoddy maintenance job...

i like the billboard idea Joz. it works well, and would fit in nicely. fake trees i dont like... it would be too easy to tell, and they would become run down over time... i agree as far as the points on the theming too, and the mirror does suck.. but just like you said, it rates the same, before and after... so if it aint broke...?

yes it does.... quite a lot actually for what could be classed as just a coaster. not as much, obviously as indiana or splash mountain, but sufficient to the ride's design.

Touche, my boy. i didnt pick that one up. The Disney procedures and policies I was referring to was in regards to the maintenance technicians, and the Green Tag, Yellow Tag procedures. The procedure that has been added by Disney since the accident regarding what an operator should do was never there before because it was never needed. there had never been cause previously for a section in the manual detailing "what to do if the train makes a funny noise" because daily maintenance on these trains picks it up. When a green tag is placed on an individual train vehicle, it is valid for 72 hours from the time it is placed. if the train has not seen service for more than 72 hours after the tag was placed, it must be re-tagged again before it can go into service. Bear in mind though that this is one persons opinion and thoughts. Bussy and Daniel have an opinion on the maintenance of rides at Wonderland too, but while im not saying they ARE wrong, operators don't see EVERYTHING that goes into the maintenance of these rides, and the attitude they have towards it could be incorrect. Again I come back to saying, that at the time, there was no policy in place on what an operator should do, and they had no reason to believe that the train was faulty, as i said before it might have just been a new part that needed time to burn in. when it didnt resolve after 12 cycles, they elected that upon return to the station, it would be shunted back off to the sidings, as if it were a new part, it should have burnt in enough by cycle 12. Also as an interesting Sidenote, all of the animatronics and special effects found in Disneyland Rides, including pirates of the carribbean, the haunted mansion, splash mountain and the like are never turned off, and neither is the audio system throughout the park. it is too costly for Disneyland to shut them down every night and restart them every morning, and also unreliable, being that sometimes things dont restart the way they should. They simply turn the sound to mute, so that the cleaners and maintenance workers don't go bonkers. Also, until recently, Disneyland used to replace EVERY SINGLE LIGHT GLOBE IN THE PARK at the same time. Walt's vision was that of perfection, so at the minimum hours quoted by the manufacturer of the globe, every bulb is replaced, so no globes blow in the middle of operation and ruin the effect, although it seems from reports these days that under Eisner's management, this quality control has been let go, allowing numerous globes in the park tp blow, and have been for several days before they are replaced. Im not saying it is what I would expect, but any ride operator will tell you that any delay for safety reasons, while sometimes necessary causes a lot of seriously peeved guests. (Daniel, Bussy... jump in anytime) Guests will simply not understand that an operators "hunch" means they have to wait even 30 seconds more to get on this ride... and that doesnt just apply to Disney. Essentially, without concrete evidence that something was seriously wrong (it was just a noise afterall.. it could have been ANYTHING, not all of which could have been potentially dangerous.) But with the suspicions they had, they elected to allow the train to complete it's cycle, before shunting it into storage before getting maintenance to have a look at it. It was one cycle too late for this, but the operators were not to know. I can tell you now that at other parks (not Disney) that in the past (without siting sources as I am unable to remember them at the moment) there have been instances of operators either e-stopping a ride, or refusing to operate the ride because of an issue they felt needed addressing by maintenance. some of these operators have been counselled, disciplined, or dismissed because of it. To take down a ride like BTM on a suspicion, while it may or may not have saved a life, you end up with one hell of a lot of peeved guests. Look how many people complain about ToT's problems with staging when it rolls back too far... or when Giant Drop only operates ONE cabin because of maintenance issues... What about when Wipeout was emitting a horrid noise during operation... did the operator close it down immediately and request a full investigation? A noise isn't always something an operator should just up and Close a ride for. its a fine line a park has to walk between safety and guest satisfaction. Unfortunately, this time the line was crossed the wrong way, But I don't fault the operators or the park one bit. it was maintenance. that is all, thats the end of it. and it was an external company that screwed up... not disney.

the trees to the left of the track are not large enough to cover the scaffolding. to truly hide it it would require numerous trees, very closely planted to cover it. they would need to be a lot higher, and with height comes a need for stability. imagine the root bases of trees that high? it could cause serious structural damage to the ride, which would be dangerous. While storms generally help branches fall off, branches can also fall down from the sheer weight of the branch, with little or no wind at all. I also seriously doubt it is possible for there to be sufficient cameras to cover every inch of track on the ride, and also to have enough people watching those cameras so that the branch fall would be noticed IMMEDIATELY. one operator watching the cameras, who is also incharge of despatching the boats at the start would not be sufficient. Also, if a branch of this size were to fall on the ride, there is no guarantee it would be noticed in time for the boats to be caught on a safety brake before it reached the branch = injuries again. It all comes down to it being too cost ineffective, for very little gain in the grand scheme of things. its not feasible, it wouldn't work, and they're not going to do it.