Learnings from Europe

[Dean Barnett]

Look I know I'm not the most popular person on this board but I thought I'd make a thread about what Europe is doing better - park wise - than the gold coast parks. Yes - I know Europe parks have a different sized market - but I believe these learnings could be successfully transferred to our parks to save time and money money while increasing guest satisfaction. Hopefully just one decision maker reads this.

 

1. On ride photo kiosk

Several parks here have unmanned automated kiosks with a eftpos machines where you just press your photo - pay €5 for a printed copy and a QR code to download the high res copy. I'd think you'd get more sales that way, rather than getting a wristband or remembering a number - going to another location - lining up - then waiting for the print. Simple 4 step process that takes seconds, requires no staff and makes you more money!

2. Minute makers in queue

Simple 10/20/30/45/60 min markers spray painted on to the ground in the queue 

Easy peasy.

 

3. Automated turnstile loading / grouping

This one is big brain stuff. Energylandia uses it and it's epic. Got a flat ride that only fits 40 people? Have a turnstile that lets 40 people through then locks. For rivals/ST you could do it really easily.. add a turnstile each for Front Row, Back-row, Rest of train and Fast pass/Single Riders. Don't bother manually grouping any coasters - especially ones with 4 to a row. I haven't seen a single coaster here which does so - and most of them don't even group at all. The world keeps revolving and everything works out. 

4.  Misc coaster things

Don't wait for the entire train to be seated before starting to secure the train. In the back row of B&M's I was seated for a few seconds before an attendant cleared my row. 

Add an announcement in the brake runs to instruct people to undo their seatbelts before entering the station.

If there's an empty station - allow re-rides! Why wouldn't you? I lapped Ride to Happiness 6 times - changing rows every lap. 

Sunglasses - it's the gold coast.. it's sunny. I've been on several coasters way more intense than anything on the gold coast (Silver Star / Untamed / Zandra) and my sunglasses have stayed put without an issue. 

5. Buy a RMC

A RMC is the only thing that would offer anything new to the Gold Coast's line up - it's a clear winner for me in any park - and comes with a 120cm height restriction with the latest trains!

 

I think that's it. Didn't mean to offend anyone or any park  - just saying it how I see it.

(Also I've now done the original Blue Fire.. it's a lot better - and I think it comes down to theming and rock work. I mean compare the pair..  

and if you want to make Giant Drop better - enclose it.. at least one side of it. Having it in complete darkness would absolutely be an world first ... Mystery Castle blew my mind)

 

 

[themagician]

My thoughts:

1 - I can definitely see the appeal and value in doing that. However, rides in Aus have had photo booths at the end of rides before for people to buy and I don’t think people do it that often (from my observations). WWF and Scooby are two of the few rides left with an actual staffed photo store at the end (and in the case of Scooby it’s not often open). Rides like SE, AA, GD, GC and EFM all used to have photo purchasing booths but no longer do. ST in peak periods has a portable printer and POS that they place under the photo viewer at the ride exit. From my perspective, isn’t it better to just buy them all at the end of the days anyways otherwise you have to carry them round all day?

2 - A lot of rides used to have this (but in sign form) at the GC parks, from what I can remember, DW has it on the Claw and GD, but that’s about it because most rides have automated wait times out the front, or A frames. Which is a much more effective way of presenting the time. And for example, it a coaster can operate with one or two trains, the printed wait times become irrelevant. It’s even ineffective on the GD because sometimes they don’t operate both gondolas. Rides like Claw, TailSpin and Shockwave it is effective on however. 
 

3 - I definitely can see why this would be a good idea and efficient, however I find it tacky. MW used to have them at the front gate and I hated them. It was not a good first impression for a park. And the day they got rid of them was great. But putting them on rides wouldn’t be appealing. And I’d imagine staff counting isn’t any less efficient overall. The staff would still need to ask how many are in a group, do the maths of how many have gone through, etc because otherwise parties may get split.

4 - I guess with the loading procedures, the staff start at the front and work their way to the back, so if the first row is the slowest to board, the staff will end up going back and forth to make sure they’ve checked everyone. With a coaster like GL that has 4 seats, and people crossing over each other to get to the loose item storage, it can be difficult to start securing harnesses etc in some situations. 

There have been times when there’s been no queue and I’ve been allowed to just continue, or harnesses are released and then re-secured because that’s how the system works (apparently).

With glasses, while I do agree, it unfortunately won’t ever happen here because of how strict the parks are with loose items. And they have to install netting over some coasters to ensure any glasses that fly off don’t hit people below, and I think netting under coasters is a horrible look.

[Gazza]

One drawback i have heard with the automated counters is that if there is a group going through as the counter runs out they get split.

Personally I don't see why you have to have them or a grouper in most situations. just let people queue into the station and fill up the gates themselves.

 

Quote

1 - I can definitely see the appeal and value in doing that. However, rides in Aus have had photo booths at the end of rides before for people to buy and I don’t think people do it that often (from my observations). WWF and Scooby are two of the few rides left with an actual staffed photo store at the end (and in the case of Scooby it’s not often open). Rides like SE, AA, GD, GC and EFM all used to have photo purchasing booths but no longer do. ST in peak periods has a portable printer and POS that they place under the photo viewer at the ride exit. From my perspective, isn’t it better to just buy them all at the end of the days anyways otherwise you have to carry them round all day?

The digtal dowload thing is more relevant today, and in that case you want to capture people in the heat of the moment wanting to 'share' what they just did. 100% should be a tap n go thing where you pick a photo and get a download link. I did this at Fuji Q.

 

Quote

 

Don't wait for the entire train to be seated before starting to secure the train. In the back row of B&M's I was seated for a few seconds before an attendant cleared my row. 

 

Huge bugbear of mine. Operations in Australia prefer to break it into discrete steps. Eg empty the train and wait for clear platform..next step let everyone in and seat themselves....next step start checking harnesses etc. Adds so much extra time compared to the US or europe where they open the gates when the train parks, the people coming on force the previous riders out, and ops start checking harnesses immediately.

[Baconjack]

4.

Plenty of discussion has already been made on the comical loading procedures at movie world which I agree with. Other parks in Australia do this well enough - restraint checks happen immediately on Big Dipper once you’re seated - Village is just incompetent.

Have never visited movie world or Dreamworld on a dead day so can’t speak from experience - but I know LPS definitely does this, you can stay on provided nobody is in the line.

Insurance probably is the reason why loose article enforcement including sunnies is strict as it is… I disagree with the “nets on coasters look bad” take when parks as big as USJ literally does it over sections on their coasters which get high foot traffic.

On a side note is there still a ban on gopro’s at Gold Coast parks? In this day and age it’s totally ridiculous, with a secure chest mount it isn’t going to do any harm. Plenty of parks allow it overseas and Adventure World does from memory provided there is a secure mount. That definitely needs changing.

5.

When it comes time to replace Gold Coaster, dreamworld seriously needs to be looking at investing in a Raptor or a Hot Racer - a perfect ride for them imo.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Baconjack

[red dragin]

Years ago on a quiet day, I rode Superman five rides out of six runs in a row. Had to get off each time. Was able to make it around in the time it would take them to roll the train through. 

[Rivals]

the only park i can recall allowing re-rides was dreamworld (years ago so might not be allowed now) we were able to ride tower of terror multiple times, changing our seats every ride and never leaving the station. Movie World does make you go all the way back around though even if there’s no one in line.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Rivals

[Brad2912]

They were allowing re-rides on ST two weeks ago when I was there. Even if there were people in the line for your gate, if there was other vacant seats you could just shuffle around 

[Dean Barnett]

12 hours ago, red dragin said:

Years ago on a quiet day, I rode Superman five rides out of six runs in a row. Had to get off each time. Was able to make it around in the time it would take them to roll the train through. 

Superman is ridiculous. 
 

I’ve been to heaps of parks - and there’s only two other rides I’ve seen so far that doesn’t let you have your phone for the *entire* queue. Steel Vengeance did for a period but they put pockets on the trains instead which are big enough for phones. 
 

Velocicoaster has double sided lockers that work with your park ticket (or any) barcode. Usually only spend under 5 mins without your phone after that. 
 

Baron 1898 has free lockers out the front with a wristband key. Manned checking with wristbands right before the preshow. 
 

Fly at Phantasialand has plastic watch bands that are colour coded for front row/resort access and everyone else - that work with double sided lockers. 
 

Yukon Striker has automated bins that travel from the load side to the unload side - that are synchronised with the trains. (If the ride stops cycling, so to the bins)

Ripriderocket and Hulk are the worst locker experiences but it’s still better than superman. None of this remembering colour BS. Barcode operated.

Any of these options would be better.

My suggestion would be just add simple bins in the station … even if they were on the other side of the train and stop using the unload station if you’re not going to use it to save time 

I’ll reply to the other posts later - just on my phone rn  

 
 

 

[pin142]

14 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

I’ve been to heaps of parks - and there’s only two other rides I’ve seen so far that doesn’t let you have your phone for the *entire* queue. Steel Vengeance did for a period but they put pockets on the trains instead which are big enough for phones. 

Phones only due to people pulling them out on ride. You could however bring a beer into the queue line. I'd suggest two though as you'll finish the first before the station.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

On 11/06/2022 at 2:44 AM, Dean Barnett said:

1. On ride photo kiosk

...

Sunglasses - it's the gold coast.. it's sunny. I've been on several coasters way more intense than anything on the gold coast (Silver Star / Untamed / Zandra) and my sunglasses have stayed put without an issue. 

In my opinion, physical photo printing in our parks needs to be staffed. Thermal printers require ribbon replacement, paper rolls, and occasionally can jam. I fully support the idea of a digital download at each ride - and then one central photo place near the park exit where you can present your digital download link\wristband\whatever for them to print if you want to (and if you don't want to, you can just leave) - those rides that already have the barcode scanners basically do this, but in the age of smartphones and QR codes, we need to do away with the wristbands and let it go directly to phone.

 

As for sunglasses, while I realise that most people's glasses would stay on, some would not. If you say "you are allowed to wear glasses on this ride" most people would assume they won't come off, and no care is required. Then some people will lose them on-ride because that is inevitable. Then you have the issue of needing to retrieve them, which in the case of expensive designer pairs you can say 'come back tomorrow' but in the case of prescription 'i can't see without them' you need to get them NOW. Which results in downtime to the ride, and is why you should just blanket say no.

On 11/06/2022 at 9:34 AM, Gazza said:

just let people queue into the station and fill up the gates themselves.

100% this. Wonderland's coasters loaded with this method - an air gate for each row, and a long queue rail behind each gate. The front and back rows were longer (obviously) and the middle rows shorter, and when you got to the station you could see how long each was to make a decision on whether seat position was important to you or whether you just wanted a ride. 

You could also count the rows to work out how many cycles you had to ride, and if you had friends in other rows, they could allow people ahead of them to time the ride together. All of this without ANY operator involvement. 

When the air gates open, 2 people from each gate enter and do their thing. Saves an entire staff member on 'grouping'

On 11/06/2022 at 7:17 PM, Rivals said:

the only park i can recall allowing re-rides was dreamworld (years ago so might not be allowed now) we were able to ride tower of terror multiple times, changing our seats every ride and never leaving the station. Movie World does make you go all the way back around though even if there’s no one in line.

I've had on-station re-cycles at Arkham, the old Corkscrew, . In most cases the computer system needs the harness to be completely opened and re-closed unless maintenance have locked the harness sensor out in the computer. This ensures that every harness gets re-checked. But for single-station rides, re-rides without re-queueing shouldn't be an issue. Imagine, for instance if you had to re-queue for Green Lantern - what a disaster!

There may be an issue with rides like Superman where the 'station doors' at the rear of load\front of unload aren't certified to have guests pass through, so the train has to be completely empty because those gates are within the rider envelope? Just a theory...

On 12/06/2022 at 7:26 AM, Dean Barnett said:

Superman is ridiculous. 
 

I’ve been to heaps of parks - and there’s only two other rides I’ve seen so far that doesn’t let you have your phone for the *entire* queue. Steel Vengeance did for a period but they put pockets on the trains instead which are big enough for phones. 

 

All your examples are valid and are a great way to handle loose items - in every case better than superman, but i'm fairly certain in every case that these designs opened with the ride, and superman already has a system, so changing it would be expensive and time consuming. 

If I remember correctly, Green Lantern opened with a similar system to Superman, which is why there are lockers at the ride queue entrance, but this was quickly abandoned in favour of on-station boxes, which was a cheap and simple change for a ride with a single load\unload. You can't do that with superman unless you get rid of the second station and unload at the load station - the trouble there is that you make it much harder to operate dual trains - unless you still park at the unload station, in which case you aren't really saving any time. 

The real time saver for Superman is for Operations to ensure riders are grouped while the ride is cycling. ensure there are people ready at the doors before the train parks, and to open those doors as soon as the train parks. Then as each row is ready start harness checking working backwards.

[Rivals]

14 minutes ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

I've had on-station re-cycles at Arkham, the old Corkscrew, . In most cases the computer system needs the harness to be completely opened and re-closed unless maintenance have locked the harness sensor out in the computer. This ensures that every harness gets re-checked. But for single-station rides, re-rides without re-queueing shouldn't be an issue. Imagine, for instance if you had to re-queue for Green Lantern - what a disaster!

they do unfortunately make you re-queue for Green Lantern even if there’s no line (atleast from my experience), it takes that long it’s not even worth it by the time you get back to the station.

[Slick]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:44 AM, Dean Barnett said:

3. Automated turnstile loading / grouping

This one is big brain stuff. Energylandia uses it and it's epic. Got a flat ride that only fits 40 people? Have a turnstile that lets 40 people through then locks. For rivals/ST you could do it really easily.. add a turnstile each for Front Row, Back-row, Rest of train and Fast pass/Single Riders. Don't bother manually grouping any coasters - especially ones with 4 to a row. I haven't seen a single coaster here which does so - and most of them don't even group at all. The world keeps revolving and everything works out. 

I've been thinking about this a bit this morning - let's say you wanted to design a queue that did away with the need for a sorter/loader like Rivals/Taipan. How would you incorporate a fastpass ticket into that flow automatically? The only way I can think of doing it is to have the fast-pass tickets come in a dedicated queue and have a station operator stop several air-gates from opening to allow the FastPass people into those seats (not ideal).

[Naazon]

2 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

I've had on-station re-cycles at Arkham, the old Corkscrew, . In most cases the computer system needs the harness to be completely opened and re-closed unless maintenance have locked the harness sensor out in the computer. This ensures that every harness gets re-checked. But for single-station rides, re-rides without re-queueing shouldn't be an issue. Imagine, for instance if you had to re-queue for Green Lantern - what a disaster!

Back when the Gold Coaster was the Cyclone, Dreamworld did a promotion (can't remember the name, double something?) where essentially you get 2 goes, no re-queue. For Cyclone, the harness released and they had to recheck them. Also at private functions if there is no queue, they do similar where they release the harness and recheck. The benefit of that one is they make you put your beer on the station next to where you load so you can grab a sneaky drink while they re-set the harness.

[themagician]

3 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

If I remember correctly, Green Lantern opened with a similar system to Superman, which is why there are lockers at the ride queue entrance, but this was quickly abandoned in favour of on-station boxes, which was a cheap and simple change for a ride with a single load\unload.

If I remember correctly, I believe the in station boxes were installed when the ride originally opened, but we’re only used for people with prescriptions glasses. I remember riding with someone who had sunglasses in their pocket they forgot about when entering the queue, remembered it when in the queue and they tried to put them in these boxes and staff refused and told them they were only for prescription glasses. Was very strange, but it wasn’t long after they could be used by anyone 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Yeah the original on-station boxes were pigeon holes only just large enough to accommodate a glasses case or other small pocket-sized item, and I believe they expanded this space to have bigger boxes.

[Dean Barnett]

I won't reply to individual posts but some points raised

Quote

Groups would be split if turnstiles locked in between cycles

People just work it out and let smaller groups through. Worked every time from what I saw. The Hyperion queue kinda reminds me of like a mini squid game. Quick snip of it here

Quote

photo printers need to be staffed

Here's one better option.. completely staff less and 100% profit! 

Seriously if they charged $5 they'd get so many more sales.

 

Quote

Operations in Australia prefer to break it into discrete steps.

Which seems so silly because of the even more slower process of having to secure each row with RFID (which I've only seen elsewhere at Hagride.. because of the moving platform ... they can unlock the restraints too!)  Another useful thing is the screens Seas have at their parks on the platform Shows what seats are not secured without the op needing to communicate it to the attendants. 

How often does superman even run 2 trains? It's really hard to tell. It should just unload in the load station and just open the door between the two. I don't even get why they're so pedantic about loose items too.. Top Thrill Dragster doesn't and it goes 3x higher .

Another thing that I really like here is the interaction between station lighting and audio and ride operations .. sound effects when gates open, lights chasing or changing on certain events. Fly at Phantasialand's station is very dark. When the train enters the LED's backlighting the wall chases the train, then the entire station gets lighter for the loading procedure, then gets dark when the train dispatches. 

Simple things that are relatively cheap compared to the entire coaster. 

On dead days - why can't they just double dispatch rides? No restraint clearing necessary. This happened for me at Fårup Sommerland... before the park even officially opened. 

 

Quote

I've been thinking about this a bit this morning - let's say you wanted to design a queue that did away with the need for a sorter/loader like Rivals/Taipan. How would you incorporate a fastpass ticket into that flow automatically? 

 

Fastpass would have a RFID or barcoded wristband that would enable the turnstile, after the previous train dispatches - a certain % of the next cycle would be let though.. so say 6 people per rivals train etc. Then the "standby" queue. 

 

Quote

 staff refused and told them they were only for prescription glasses.

This is stupid. Their whole motive should be to get as many people on rides as quickly as possible. 

It's weird they let people with watches on (secured by a strap) but won't extend that to sunglasses (secured by a strap).

(please don't get any ideas)

Other crowd pleaser idea is free wristbands for parents to write their name/numbers on and slap on their kids.

 

I think that's it for now.

 

[pin142]

54 minutes ago, Dean Barnett said:

I don't even get why they're so pedantic about loose items too.. Top Thrill Dragster doesn't and it goes 3x higher .

Loose items on that ride are generally bits of the ride

55 minutes ago, Dean Barnett said:

Their whole motive should be to get as many people on rides as quickly as possible.

Should be but if you cycle a ride less times per hour it's less wear and operating costs for the ride itself. Also "fuck the guests, if they're unhappy they should just pay to skip the queue or come back when it's not busy" is the model they seem to want to run these days so I doubt we'll see things improve quickly anytime soon.

[Park Addict 93]

On 13/06/2022 at 8:56 AM, Rivals said:

they do unfortunately make you re-queue for Green Lantern even if there’s no line (atleast from my experience), it takes that long it’s not even worth it by the time you get back to the station.

This seems to be at the discretion of the main operator for GL, sometimes they have allowed rerides. Used to always reride Lethal/Arkham back in the day and WWF prior to the station/boat changes.

Have been successful with rerides at DW with Taipan, Gold Coaster, Tailspin and Drop.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Park Addict 93

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

10 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

People just work it out and let smaller groups through.

So… you don’t need turnstiles… just paint dots on the floor and they’ll work it out?

 

10 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

How often does superman even run 2 trains? It's really hard to tell. It should just unload in the load station and just open the door between the two. I don't even get why they're so pedantic about loose items too.. Top Thrill Dragster doesn't and it goes 3x higher .

It’s called different safety jurisdictions. Australia is safer. This is why.

 

10 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

why can't they just double dispatch rides? No restraint clearing necessary.

Because ride computer says no.

 

10 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

free wristbands for parents to write their name/numbers on and slap on their kids.

Or, if parents are apparently incapable of watching their kids, they should supply their own damn wristband!

[Gazza]

11 hours ago, pin142 said:

I don't even get why they're so pedantic about loose items too.. Top Thrill Dragster doesn't and it goes 3x higher .

But TTD has lockers you have to use:

[Naazon]

13 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

People just work it out and let smaller groups through. Worked every time from what I saw. 

...

Fastpass would have a RFID or barcoded wristband that would enable the turnstile, after the previous train dispatches - a certain % of the next cycle would be let though.. so say 6 people per rivals train etc. Then the "standby" queue. 

So if a group has Fastpass, good luck, guess how many the next train will let on, have a great day.

[Dean Barnett]

On 14/06/2022 at 10:46 PM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

So… you don’t need turnstiles… just paint dots on the floor and they’ll work it out?

No - it's a balance between letting the entire queue in and it being a free for all, and a old style grouper that the GC parks love. (Of course only in use for days where there's a 10+ minute wait

On 14/06/2022 at 10:46 PM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

It’s called different safety jurisdictions. Australia is safer. This is why.

I'm sure I'll be corrected but the only instances of injury from objects falling off riders was the duelling inverts at Universal Orlando - they stopped duelling them and that fixed that. Twisted Colossus at SFMM has nets between trains when they're above or below each other.  

On 14/06/2022 at 10:46 PM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Because ride computer says no.

Seems like a simple fix

On 15/06/2022 at 12:47 AM, Gazza said:

But TTD has lockers you have to use:

I rode every coaster at Cedar Point without using lockers. Phone/Wallet/Keys go in a running waistband thing. Simples.

On 15/06/2022 at 1:23 AM, Naazon said:

So if a group has Fastpass, good luck, guess how many the next train will let on, have a great day.

Is this not how fastpass works now? If not you can just change the programming.. simples. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Dean Barnett

[Naazon]

1 hour ago, Dean Barnett said:

Is this not how fastpass works now? If not you can just change the programming.. simples. 

No, because they use a human grouper who can let in the whole group

[Dean Barnett]

8 hours ago, Naazon said:

No, because they use a human grouper who can let in the whole group

I’m not sure why you’re so against it - I’ve seen it working in the flesh - I’m not making this up from scratch. 

[Rivals]

1 hour ago, Dean Barnett said:

I’m not sure why you’re so against it - I’ve seen it working in the flesh - I’m not making this up from scratch. 

trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing isn't the smartest idea, yeah it would be a way of “modernising” the way our parks run, but there’s also a lot of issues that can come with it. 

 

the main issue i see happening would be if a turnstile breaks, the entire ride will have to close as they won’t be able to let anyone into the station. Also trying to fit the different queue options into the already provided space would be a pain (front, back, every other seat, fast pass, up charge experience - DCR, ST & Leviathan - possibly single rider.) imo just keep the human grouper but i’d love to be proved wrong about this and a park try it out on one ride.