What Would You Have Done With WLS Had It Not Closed Down?

[scott]

I would have worked hard on upgrading Bush Beast and Demon,and I probably would have added something like Vortex at Kings Island but with a more ordely layout.Add a good log flume in and that would have made Wonderland perfect for me...I just wish I'd had the chance to go in the first place.

[PattieBoi]

I would have re-opened Little Wonderland and added a few more attractions. I would also give the beastie a new paint job, re model it so it would look exactly like TBB only smaller. I would have also added another Intamin, a proto type. I love Wonderland like a fat kid loves cake!

[scott]

What is Little Wonderland? Is it a section of the park?

[T-bone]

Little Wonders Land was the land at the very back of the Park next to the Wildlife park up the Hill. Little Wonders Land was originally known a Hanna Barbera Land and contained all the kids rides including the Beastie. The park in 2001 i think lost the Hanna Barbera licence (More like, Didn't want to spend the money re-newing it) so they changed the name to Little Wonders Land. And shortly after that, to reduce costs, they closed the area down and put a gate just after the magic show entry and did the rides up, and moved them to various places around the park. My Memories of HBL were the most memories i ever had of the park and i thought it had the best atmosphere in the whole park. That area was the best as even if your too old for the rides up their (most of them anyone could ride), you could still walk around, look at all the nice fountains and think "What a nice place this place is".

[Bussy]

I would have removed Little Wonder's Land and extended the Wildlife Park into this area. This would include the demolition of Beastie. I would then build a kids/family coaster in the area between Balloon and Action Arena. Then get rid of Bush Beast and build a new steel coaster of some sort and like Bush Beast make it so it made a huge impact on the passing traffic. I would also increase the maintenance budget to allow the overhaul of the rest of the rides so that they were more reliable. "The Bus is now leaving for The Budget, Tasmania"

[dr_teeth]

when i first heard that it was closing i wasnt suprised. this was because ive always felt that it was built in the wrong spot (out in the middle of nowhere). It was never an easy place to get to unless you had a car. Otherwise it was a long train ride and then a bus from there. Even if you had a car from most places in sydney it took a fair while to get there. I guess if i owned it and felt that there was a future for the park my answer to this question would be simple. Spend a lot of money, do a lot of maintainence and build a few new attractions and try and get the people back.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

i'd close billabong grove, and sundowner theatre, and move HB LWL section here. leave zodiac where it is for the traffic exposure, purpose build a venue suitable for Tony and Juleen to continue, or perhaps just build sundowner walls and a roof to make that an indoor theatre. i'd keep Bush Beast, completely refurb it inside and out, and paint it to give it better protection from the elements as well as make it stand out more to the M4. i'd bring in over the period of 4 years two steel coasters of varying design, a flat, and a tower style ride. i'd put more into operations, to keep staffing up and queues down. id increase entertainment cast. around 2001, entertainment cast also doubled as the cast for tony and juleen. this took almost all entertainment out of the park for about 2.5 hours every day, which meant nothing of a non-mechanical nature was there really to entertain the guests unless they went into a show. the entertainment cast that weren't in millennium magic, were part of action man... i'd make snowy's station revolve again (just cause i love it that way), i'd bring back Scooby's Silly Stix, Bam-Bam's ball bash, Judy's Jetliners, and the paddleboats (i believe engineering still had some of those lying around somewhere). I'd have $5 after 5pm again and it'd be every night during spring and summer holidays, plus every weekend. in off peak times, from may to august, i'd only open on weekends and school holidays, except the wildlife park, which i'd keep open every day just for the asian tourism market. i'd bring the tooheys pirate ship back into the lake, and start the pirate show all over again. i'd bring oracle back to stage the space probe show again. i'd give demon a preshow, introduce a simulator style ride (batman style). i'd bring a flume in - not fred flintstone style... im talking bermuda style. i'd return the park to being a THEME park... no... for the last 5 years, it WASN'T a theme park. cast would wear COSTUMES, not uniforms. goldrush cast in olde style bodices, skirts, breeches and braces. they'd be in theme, ALL THE TIME. cast would be there as much to keep up the theme as they would to operate a ride or make a hotdog or take a photo. if they couldn't keep theme, they can't keep a job. more characters... all the time. photographers out in front of the gates... taking photos for those little viewfinder keyring things that you picked up at the end of the day.... every day... flags all over the place. not wonderland flags, but flags to set the theme... for those who knew "kevin" and saw his book from 1985, international village (botany bay for you wonderland virgins) had "king arthur" style flags everywhere. as far as rides, with the exception of HBLWL which i would move to billabong, all rides would be in there 1990's positions. i say 1990's positions, because some rides relocated early after opening - redback spider, tassie devil and endeavour are examples of this. i'd bring back themed music depending on the world one was in. 911's Wonderland is ok, but walking through goldrush listening to click go the shears was the ultimate. on the subject of goldrush, i'd bring back ned kelly's getaway. i'd buy the HB license again, i'd turn the outback restaurant back into captain cook's restaurant. endeavour would go back to 2 bridge operation. tassie would have two gates. snowy would have 4 ops plus guardtowers. dragons would have two gates, wizard's the same thing. and everything back to its original spec of operators. probe's preshow would be queue controlled, like it was when it opened. zodiac would operate on two queuelines. on that note, i'd put an escalator up the hill to zodiac. the entry to the wildlife park at dodgems would be open during theme park operation days. basically, with the exception of the new stuff, i would return the park to the way it was between 1985 and 1990. given a 10 year plan, i would also put in a marine park. on top of seals, sea lions, dolphins, ski shows etc, i'd be getting an orca as well. yes i know this competes with sea world, thats the point. i know the distance from the ocean complicates the issue, this would be overcome. finally, i'd run for mayor of blacktown, just so i could push through the DA to have an accomodation complex resort conference centre, with golf course etc built. essentially, with water park and accomodation, there is nothing that the big 4 on the gold coast have that wonderland doesnt and thats the biggest problem wonderland had. there were always plans to build accomodation there, but blacktown council always vetoed the plan, with rooty hill rsl and others complaining they would lose business. what they didn't understand was that it would only enhance the tourism in the area thus requiring more accomodation. but anyway... thats my dream. oh and one more - a dark ride coaster - space mountain scooby spooky coaster style. so yeah... not gunna happen, but thats what i would like to do...

[Bussy]

Why would you want to do all of that? Besides "two steel coasters of varying design, a flat, and a tower style ride" and moving HB/LWL everything else you have suggested is going backwards. Why move backwards when you should be moving forwards. Your ideas on staffing levels are ridiculously inefficient and negatively cost effective. There was a very good reason the 'cast' stop wearing those outrageously bad 'costumes' and that was that they are not practical due to various OH&S issues. I know what you said is your opinion and that’s ok, but going backwards and not really improving for the future is a bad thing. "The Bus is now leaving for Future Reserve, Victoria"

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Why would you want to do all of that?  Besides "two steel coasters of varying design, a flat, and a tower style ride" and moving HB/LWL everything else you have suggested is going backwards.  Why move backwards when you should be moving forwards.  Your ideas on staffing levels are ridiculously inefficient and negatively cost effective.  There was a very good reason the 'cast' stop wearing those outrageously bad 'costumes' and that was that they are not practical due to various OH&S issues. I know what you said is your opinion and that’s ok, but going backwards and not really improving for the future is a bad thing.

ok - so the costume thing was probably just reminiscent of my first days at the park. and yeah ok - admittedly ride ops wearing that sort of thing isnt practical.... but the general street cast - games and retail ops, cleaners etc could wear the more elaborate outfits with ops wearing something more suitable to their position, while still fitting theme. excepting the costumes, i think everything i said was quite sound. you talk of cost inefficiency. but the question i would like to raise is - when wonderland cut corners, operators and multiple exit gates etc out of their rides so they only required one or two people, what was the average attendance? now go back to 1985 - 1990, before all of the cost cutting measures were put into place... what was the average attendance then? now, take the 1985-1990 attendance, and charge it at today's ticket price. how much MORE money is the park going to make. primary reason? it was better the old way. and i can prove it. talk to anyone who isn't a DIE HARD theme park fan. someone who generally just would go once a year if that... ask them of their experiences at the park say, in the last 3 years of operation, compared to its first 3 years of operation (give or take a year or so on either side). from EVERYONE i have spoken to over the years the resounding response was always very similar to "wonderland used to be good, now its crap" or something similar. the one thing wonderland abandoned that hasn't been abandoned by sea world, movie world, and a lot of the great parks in america is its care for its guests - and this care is comprised of - happy staff, and lots of them, a true-to-life theme, that makes people believe that for 7 hours or more per day, they really are in a different world, where happiness, fun, laughter and all that joyous crap are true. yes, we live in a different world. a world of terrorism, and violence, like nothing back in the 80's when wonderland first opened... I have been VERY fortunate to have visited a number of parks in the US, and i can say, particularly, of Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, and SF Magic Mountain, that the high staffing levels, and high staff quality, as well as high quality theming really make you believe you are in another world. that you have escaped everydayland. that was one marketing campaign wonderland just didnt have the balls to back up. i dont think those ideas are a step backward. i think it is precisely these options which the management of wonderland decided not to take, that lead wonderland backward and inevitably to its close in the end. show me how I am wrong there...?

[joz]

Why is themeing uniforms an OH&S, and when should we plan to stop themeing uniforms up here on the Gold Coast? Personally, I'd look at letting the Wildlife Park take over the Little Wonder's Land, and have a kids area behind Demon. I'd remove Action Arena, and add a tracked train (Wonderland Express has gotta be the biggest joke that went around that place. Cheapened the experience IMHO) from Gold Rush to the new kids area. I'd look at building a new coaster in behind Snowy (was there any room behind there?) and either fix the theming on Snowy, or replace it with a new water ride. Bush Beast would have to be re-tracked to stay in the park, though a new coaster to replace it wouldn't be out of the question. As much as I'd hate it as a guest, I'd probably have closed the beach, and built a new water park at the far end of the owned land. This has more to do with perception: The area would appear to be more of a destination with 2 separate attractions, and thus a hotel would be better supported. People from more then a few hours (from what I hear) didn't do the day trip to Wonderland, and they're hardly going to stay two nights in the Western Suburbs of Sydney for Wonderland. The reason Nara works at Seaworld is because the Gold Coast is a destination. Seaworld on its own is a day trip, and probably couldn't support a hotel. Wonderland and a separate gate water park probably could, since the perception would be that it takes 2 days to do what's there. You could also sell 3 or 4 day park pass', to get people staying an extra night. It'd be even tempting to add rides like Bungy Rocket and Sky Coaster to the area to help give people the impression there's allot of stuff there, and its worth spending a few days there, or if not, definatly worth getting the family in the car for a day out. Go on, tear it too shreds, I know you want too

[zordmaker]

1.) Close the Wildlife Park (what a waste of time and money). 2.) Subdivide and Sell ALL the unused land (most of you have no idea just how much there really is, that is until you've driven around it a few times in the dark..) 3.) Plonk a large, commercial centre next to the park eg Bulky Goods Retail or DFO outlet or similar. Maybe Mr Gazal would be interested. Im sure Blacktown Council would be far more receptive than Liverpool (or the State Govt) was. 4.) Use the money from (2) to do all the things that people have suggested be done but would take a crapload of cash injection (except for, of course, the ludicrous idea of replacing bush beast.. whoever came up with that should be banned from this site..) Examples : Revitalise staff, renovate rides, repoen LWL, Buy & Install one new large format ride, buy & install at least 1 new large steel coaster, rework entry fees to encourage locals to attend, open the park seasonally like the US parks (Summer only, not all year round), open the park at night during holidays. 5.) Re gear all promotions to domestic tourism (ncluding local) rather than international tourists. 6.) Close the park (I know, that contradicts the title of this thread) until ALL the work was done, then have a huge reopening. ZordMaker

[rappa]

Hey Joz... I believe the OH&S thing is to do with some stupid workcover suit that got brought about with Wonderland. For some reason that only seems to affect WL it was seen against OH&S to have a person operate/work at a single ride all day. This then meant that they had to rotate staff between rides and thus couldn't do attraction or even area specific uniforms/costumes. I have no idea why this was an issue, every other park in the world seems to have staff work a single ride on at least a particular shift. Many of the US parks so even further and the staff (or crews) only work on a single ride all of the time. You can still rotate around jobs and all I've seen is it produces staff that are much better and pay much more attention to detail on their respective attractions. Who knows why NSW and WL had to be different ...this being the first bitchin message brought to you from my brank spankin new smokin G5

[joz]

Here's the thing though, why couldn't you do a Tassie Bush Beast Swap? Or a Snowie Balloons swap? Or a Demon Dragon's Flight swap? See what I'm getting at? Means staff would have to be well trained and the people doing the rosters would have to be competetent. Not too much to ask is it?

[Bussy]

but the general street cast - games and retail ops, cleaners etc could wear the more elaborate outfits with ops wearing something more suitable to their position, while still fitting theme.

There is still a problem with OH&S in regards to 'costumes' worn by staff. For rides it is obvious, they can get caught in the machinery. This also applies to cleaning staff. Yes they do use more than just a broom. But aside from that issue is the issue of the weather. If you remember the old costumes they were very heavy and cumbersome and if you know what the weather is like during summer out at the park you will understand what I am talking about.

when wonderland cut corners, operators and multiple exit gates etc out of their rides so they only required one or two people, what was the average attendance? now go back to 1985 - 1990, before all of the cost cutting measures were put into place... what was the average attendance then?

I don't know what were the attendances? Because I along with a few other people here would really like to know. But one thing is for sure is that the staffing levels and attendances during that period had nothing to do with each other. The pay rate back then was less than half what it was when the park closed and therefore meant that more staff could be employed.

now, take the 1985-1990 attendance, and charge it at today's ticket price. how much MORE money is the park going to make. primary reason? it was better the old way.

When you give me the attendance figures I will do the calculations. But the thing is that nothing is better done 'the old way'. Because if everything was done 'the old way' nothing would ever progress.

i think it is precisely these options which the management of wonderland decided not to take, that lead wonderland backward and inevitably to its close in the end. show me how I am wrong there...?

But if there decisions lead Wonderland backwards surely that meant doing things 'the old way' and therefore was better. It was not Wonderland's management that decided to close the park it was the decision of Sunway's board.

Why is themeing uniforms an OH&S, and when should we plan to stop themeing uniforms up here on the Gold Coast?

Read above for the answers to this question. I don't know about Queensland but in NSW the OH&S legislation states that the employer must provide a safe working environment. That means that the clothing provided must be suitable in all conditions.

1.) Close the Wildlife Park (what a waste of time and money).

Are you serious? The Wildlife Park made more money than the rides part did, and the reason was simple, Asian tourists with wads of money and an insatiable appetite for Australiana.

2.) Subdivide and Sell ALL the unused land (most of you have no idea just how much there really is, that is until you've driven around it a few times in the dark..)

They started doing that and look where all the money went. I don't know what you were doing driving around there in the dark, but my guess is that you were looking for some nice tight lycra to wear. The Spiderman costume was kept in the administration building so you were wasting your time.

(except for, of course, the ludicrous idea of replacing bush beast.. whoever came up with that should be banned from this site..)

That was my idea and it is the most practical. The Bush Beast was way too old and neglected and needed to be replaced. Anyone who wears lycra should be banned from this site and sent to a mental hospital.

I believe the OH&S thing is to do with some stupid workcover suit that got brought about with Wonderland. For some reason that only seems to affect WL it was seen against OH&S to have a person operate/work at a single ride all day. This then meant that they had to rotate staff between rides and thus couldn't do attraction or even area specific uniforms/costumes. I have no idea why this was an issue, every other park in the world seems to have staff work a single ride on at least a particular shift. Many of the US parks so even further and the staff (or crews) only work on a single ride all of the time. You can still rotate around jobs and all I've seen is it produces staff that are much better and pay much more attention to detail on their respective attractions.

Have you ever done the same thing over and over and over again for 6 hours? If you have you will understand why it is an OH&S issue. It's like driving a car after a while you become tired and loose concentration and I think we all know what happens when that occurs. The staff at Wonderland were never stuck on the same ride for the whole day anyway. When they used the Space Probe jumpsuits the operators would get changed at lunch, and just before they stopped using them they just wore them while operating Demon. I think you will find that not many parks have staff on the same ride for the whole day and I know for a fact that quite a few actually rotate staff every hour, like Wonderland used to. If people get stuck on the same ride for the whole day it actually reduces there awareness of what is going on. Most of the people on this site have never worked in a theme park, let alone operated a ride so I don't know how you can say, with any conviction, anything that holds any truth when it comes to operational theme park issues. "The Bus is now laving for Conviction Bank, South Australia"

[Flea]

I know that Cedar Point have the same crew for one ride for the whole season. Apparently they just rotate positions (loader/unloader to op to queue etc) every 30 minutes.

[joz]

Wonderbuss is mostly right, staff don't generally operate the same ride all day. When they do, its on rides with multiple ops, thus meaning the duties performed changes frequently. Wonderbuss, though I tend to agree with you on most topics, I still don't see how wearing costumes is a health and safety hazard. All the parks on the Gold Coast have costumes that aren't (as far as I'm aware) a health and safety hazard. Maybe the old Wonderland costumes were, but I don't see why that makes costumes in general a bad idea.

[scott]

Ok,this thread has gone from what you would do at WLS to the hidden dangers of costumes at theme parks,try and stay on topic guys.

[zordmaker]

1.) Close the Wildlife Park (what a waste of time and money). 2.) Subdivide and Sell ALL the unused land (most of you have no idea just how much there really is, that is until you've driven around it a few times in the dark..) 3.) Plonk a large, commercial centre next to the park eg Bulky Goods Retail or DFO outlet or similar. Maybe Mr Gazal would be interested. Im sure Blacktown Council would be far more receptive than Liverpool (or the State Govt) was. 4.) Use the money from (2) to do all the things that people have suggested be done but would take a crapload of cash injection (except for, of course, the ludicrous idea of replacing bush beast.. whoever came up with that should be banned from this site..) Examples : Revitalise staff, renovate rides, repoen LWL, Buy & Install one new large format ride, buy & install at least 1 new large steel coaster, rework entry fees to encourage locals to attend, open the park seasonally like the US parks (Summer only, not all year round), open the park at night during holidays. 5.) Re gear all promotions to domestic tourism (ncluding local) rather than international tourists. 6.) Close the park (I know, that contradicts the title of this thread) until ALL the work was done, then have a huge reopening. ZordMaker

Whoops... ALmost forgot the most important one of all... 7.) Abolish the gate fees. Replace with ride and show tokens. ZordMaker

[zordmaker]

Hey Joz... Who knows why NSW and WL had to be different

It was this sort of bloody mindedness that closed the park. And good on them. Now someone else can reopen it with a completely new set of industrial relations agreements. ZordMaker

[zordmaker]

Are you serious?  The Wildlife Park made more money than the rides part did, and the reason was simple, Asian tourists with wads of money and an insatiable appetite for Australiana.

The evidence (including the official reasons given by Management as to why the park closed) suggest otherwise. As an international destination, WL held no significant pulling power at all. There are plenty of other Sydney destinations where tourists can cuddle up with Australian animals (the Zoo, Koala Park, etc etc).

They started doing that and look where all the money went.  I don't know what you were doing driving around there in the dark, but my guess is that you were looking for some nice tight lycra to wear.  The Spiderman costume was kept in the administration building so you were wasting your time.

..Remember?.. The Radio station transmitter?.. Space probe?... 1997?... Access only after hours?... Hmm Hmm. ZordMaker

[GoGoBoy]

this thread has gone from what you would do at WLS to the hidden dangers of costumes at theme parks

Haha nicely put Scott. Now that is one fascinating topic. Just remember one thing people - both the theme park and the wildlife park were doing well right up to when the park closed, even though no significant capital was spent in the last 10 years. Don't let Sunway fool you into thinking otherwise. Imagine how well the place would be doing now if they had continued to improve things rather than cutting back so heavily. Especially with the tourism market bouncing back and people wanting to spend their disposable cash on leisure. A couple of the main points discussed here which I think would have benefited Wonderland in the long run include - 1. Expanding/improving the water park significantly and allowing it to become both a stand alone and intergrated attraction 2. Building a golf course with a Wonderland resort attached on the excess land 3. Retain and improve the children's area with a new drawcard attraction for kids and new theme 4. Major new ride Some of these things were considered by Wonderland a few years back but obviously never even got close to actually happening

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

bus you have answered my questions with more questions. i didnt say that the ride ops had to wear elaborate costumes that posed an OHS risk. I said that they could wear something that still fitted the theme without posing a risk. im not saying dig up the dusty old remnants of costumes they had back then, i meant go back to the themed costumes. design new ones - ones that don't make the staff uncomfortable in hot weather. As far as the pay rates back then, so were the gate prices. gate prices at one point were about $22. ok so the pay rate has doubled.... so has the gate price... that cancels each other out. if everything was done the old way nothing would progress? "creating memories, 1985-2004"... thats progress... perhaps the old way was the better way? im not saying it IS the RIGHT way... im just saying that perhaps had it been done rather than do what sunway did, it WOULDNT have closed. and correct me if i am wrong, but as administrators of wonderland, Sunway's board of directors could be considered "Wonderland Management" ? couldn't it? i refer to the decisions of Sunway as being the new way. what was done by the previous owners of the park is what i consider "the old way" no, i can't supply accurate or even speculative figures on daily attendance in the periods of 1985-1990 and 2000-2004, but it doesnt take a brain surgeon to note that between 1985 and 1990, bush beast running two trains, one main operator, one brake controller at the rear of the platform, and two loadunloaders, had a queue that ran all the way back to the main "bush beast" sign. now take any average day in operation for 2000-2004, and note that one operator running one train got you on the coaster within approximately 4 cycles. look at the lengths of the queue lines that were built for bounty, wizards, dragons, taz, endeavour, and snowy. i guarantee in the period of 85-90, these queues were ALL utilised. pick your average day in 2000-2004, and you would rarely go past the first line, of what was generally 5 or 6 lines. that attendance speaks for itself. so ok you wanna do some calculations? lets say each line of a queue holds 30 people. present day prices of entry (for arguments sake say $50), times 30 people = $1500 now lets go back to attendance of 85-90 - say 5 queue lines times the same price? = $7500. now while these figures are obviously not as accurate as they should be, they give a fair idea of the difference between the "OLD" way and the "SUNWAY" way.

[dr_teeth]

alex man you have raised some great points. however there are so many OTHER factors that we would be unaware of in running the park. (eg public liability insurance which has gone up something like 400% since 2001). Basicly nothing ever gets cheaper. So i think its unrealistic to expect that entry prices would not do the same over time. Dont get me wrong. I loved the place and was sad when i heard it was closing. But the simple answer to why it closed was that the last decent thing to be added to the park was SP in 1995!! IF an attraction like wonderland wants to stay open and keep the crowds coming back simply they have to give you a reason to come back. Wonderland didnt do that in the last 9 or so years of its life, which is the reason it lost the crowds that you once mentioned. Wonderland was a an excellent park in its day. However it fell behind the times and fell away from what you would call a high standard themepark. Just take a look at DW its growing in what it has to offer the public. Is it any wonder that its growing in popularity at the same time.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

i dont doubt that things get more expensive... i dont believe entry prices would not increase... what i was saying was that in 85 when wages were $6, entry prices were $22. entry is now close to $50, and wages are now close to $15 i also agree to the whole adding new rides thing. in my initial post i did say 4 new rides in 4 years. i also said it was no longer a theme park. they lost it in the last 5 years or so. i agree it fell behind, hence the reason why i am talking about bringing back all the theming, costumes etc. yes dreamworld is growing, adding new rides etc, and thats mainly what wonderland did wrong, but one thing DW doesnt do is manage its capacity (ducks for cover on that comment) so Dr Teeth... i think you mis understood my post.

[dr_teeth]

there are simply too many variables to say this is exactly where it went wrong, or for that matter this is how it should have been fixed. Come on man none of us here have been in the position of running a park like this so simply this is all guess work and we dont know anything for sure. However having said that you have some great ideas. A lot of which id be most happy to see in the real world. And rest assure that if i had a squillion bucks id buy up wonderland and reopen it and do it up...you could be my ideas man haha