Disney Expanding Footprint Name In Australia

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

On 17/05/2024 at 10:48 AM, Gazza said:

It's always Werribee 😍😍😍

Which is funny, given the reaction the locals had to the VRTP proposal, can you imagine their reaction to a bigger player?

On 17/05/2024 at 10:10 PM, REGIE said:

I feel like Disney will never happen here in Australia. But what do we think about universal ?

Truthfully, Disney would never be possible due to the government funding that Disney would ask for. I do think Universal would be willing to partner on a project if there were a local willing to pay for it - ala Resorts World. So if someone like Gina Reinhart lobbied to build a 'precinct' that included a casino, entertainment precinct, hotels and a Universal park, I reckon she'd get the gaming licence and permission to build and boom. 

but thats a lot of big 'if's

On 18/05/2024 at 4:04 AM, Cactus_Matt said:

Wonderland was genuinely great but does anyone in that state care that all they have is a dinky amusement park by the bay? 

Sydney-born here. It's a Harbour.

And plenty of people care, but Sydney as it stands is built out. Your options right now are either next to the second airport (and land has become stupidly expensive out there for obvious reasons) or you have to leave the basin - cross the mountains, or head down or up the coast. All of those options are very poor choices.

Sydney had the makings. Wonderland was part government owned at one time, but the Taft split ultimately forced the sale and the rest is history. There is no longer an opportunity to build ground-up. that ship has sailed.

[Baconjack]

5 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

And plenty of people care, but Sydney as it stands is built out. Your options right now are either next to the second airport (and land has become stupidly expensive out there for obvious reasons) or you have to leave the basin - cross the mountains, or head down or up the coast. All of those options are very poor choices.

Sydney had the makings. Wonderland was part government owned at one time, but the Taft split ultimately forced the sale and the rest is history. There is no longer an opportunity to build ground-up. that ship has sailed.

You’re mostly right but there’s quite a bit of greenfield land out near Campbelltown off the Hume highway, probably one of the last major pieces of land to support a park in Sydney as major road coverage is absolutely critical for a park. Wonderland had that with the M4.

That said it will probably end up a cookie cutter housing development or warehouses within 20 years.

Out near the second airport I’m pretty sure much of that land around there is commonwealth owned, as they’re planning to develop around the airport in the future. If one was to secure a lease on some of that land and play the long game it would work but I doubt the government or the private sector would have that sort of vision

Edited May 20 by Baconjack

[Jobe]

On 20/05/2024 at 7:47 AM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

And plenty of people care, but Sydney as it stands is built out. Your options right now are either next to the second airport (and land has become stupidly expensive out there for obvious reasons) or you have to leave the basin - cross the mountains, or head down or up the coast. All of those options are very poor choices.

The Central Coast has plenty of land at Sommersby near the Reptile Park. It is close to the M1 and in between the 2 biggest population centres of NSW in Sydney and Newcastle along with the Central Coast. If the land was cleared for a project such as a new theme park here, it would seem like its an excellent choice as it ticks a lot of boxes. It is not 100% ideal as of course it would be in the middle of nowhere without any huge infrastucture but being connected to the M1 and only being an hour away from your 2 biggest population base means that it would be a desirable site. I certainly would not put it in the poor choices category. 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

1 hour ago, Jobe said:

I certainly would not put it in the poor choices category. 

Ahem:

1 hour ago, Jobe said:

it would be in the middle of nowhere without any huge infrastucture but being connected to the M1 and only being an hour away

• Middle of nowhere
• No infrastructure
• an hour away

 

Come on mate, I know you've got a bias for the region, but its a poor choice. Put it 30 minutes from a major international airport with substantial accommodation options next door and several other attractions within a 15 minute drive, or no deal. This isn't Adventure World we're talking about.

[Brad2912]

3 hours ago, Jobe said:

I certainly would not put it in the poor choices category. 

I’d have it in the horrendous choices category tbh…

or maybe the “this site would make for a good business park in 5 years” category 

[Baconjack]

3 hours ago, Jobe said:

The Central Coast has plenty of land at Sommersby near the Reptile Park. It is close to the M1 and in between the 2 biggest population centres of NSW in Sydney and Newcastle along with the Central Coast. If the land was cleared for a project such as a new theme park here, it would seem like its an excellent choice as it ticks a lot of boxes. It is not 100% ideal as of course it would be in the middle of nowhere without any huge infrastucture but being connected to the M1 and only being an hour away from your 2 biggest population base means that it would be a desirable site. I certainly would not put it in the poor choices category. 

Problem with this is the reptile park is tiny - only about 8.9 hectares. You can’t do much exactly with that. I’d back it in for a gumbuya world style transformation if they owned more land and sold to a new owner with vision, but they don’t. You’d have to build a ground up park and I’m not sure if thats sustainable as that requires much more capital. You’d be better served getting a lease in all that land around Badgerys Creek that the government owns around the airport site, if any of it is to be used for tourism purposes at all.

Also around there may be an hour away from the north shore, but getting there from out west where the people actually are is going to take you 2 hours most likely. No train either - closest one would be Gosford and even then there’s no PT serving the reptile park going from that direction.

Edited May 21 by Baconjack

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

14 hours ago, Baconjack said:

even then there’s no PT serving the reptile park going from that direction.

To be fair if an attraction of the size we're talking got built, the PT would materialise.

[Jobe]

On 21/05/2024 at 2:39 PM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Ahem:

• Middle of nowhere
• No infrastructure
• an hour away

 

Come on mate, I know you've got a bias for the region, but its a poor choice. Put it 30 minutes from a major international airport with substantial accommodation options next door and several other attractions within a 15 minute drive, or no deal. This isn't Adventure World we're talking about.

Look I get what you are saying. Let me expand on my thinking here. This is in the area of one of the biggest growth corridors in NSW and smack bang in the middle of the 3 biggest population bases in all of NSW next door to the biggest freeway and transport corridor between the two biggest population bases- that is a powerful case right there.

Australia's Wonderland when it began in 1985 was probably in a far worse position when it opened- and it had the same issues that were probably more disadvantageous  than what a site at Sommersby would be. Australia's Wonderland opened with no rail links, no close connection to any major airport and at the time the road infrastructure was far inferior than what we have today. I just think that as a ground up site, it has its advantages. 

Everything grew around Wonderland and I think that having a major theme park situated here in NSW people would travel for it. They would also couple it with visits to either the Hunter region or the Greater Sydney region. 

Dreamworld, when it was built, also had no real infrastructure around it either. To get there, you travelled by car or by coach. And yet they came. 

On 21/05/2024 at 5:06 PM, Baconjack said:

Problem with this is the reptile park is tiny - only about 8.9 hectares. You can’t do much exactly with that. I’d back it in for a gumbuya world style transformation if they owned more land and sold to a new owner with vision, but they don’t. You’d have to build a ground up park and I’m not sure if thats sustainable as that requires much more capital. You’d be better served getting a lease in all that land around Badgerys Creek that the government owns around the airport site, if any of it is to be used for tourism purposes at all.

Also around there may be an hour away from the north shore, but getting there from out west where the people actually are is going to take you 2 hours most likely. No train either - closest one would be Gosford and even then there’s no PT serving the reptile park going from that direction.

Yeah I am talking about a separate entity here- not aligning with the Reptile park. Travel from Western Sydney shouldnt be all that much of a problem-in fact its the exact obverse of what Australia's Wonderland faced when it first opened and now the road infrastructure is that much more superior to then. The M4 and the M7 directly link to the North Connex and that leads to the M1 and before you know it, you are on the Central Coast. 

 

19 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

To be fair if an attraction of the size we're talking got built, the PT would materialise.

Exactly. 

 To me it all depends on the product. Australia's Wonderland worked because of its uniqueness and sheer size to anything that had been seen in NSW at the time. People travelled to it. And it worked. The infrastucture around it grew over time. If whatever was built was a compelling enough reason to visit, then people would. Thats how Australia's Wonderland lasted for 20 years. Of course we know its history and its ending- and that partly had to do with its location but it was not a barrier to its 20 years of existence.

On 20/05/2024 at 1:09 PM, Baconjack said:

as major road coverage is absolutely critical for a park. Wonderland had that with the M4.

Could not have said this any better. But lets remember that when Wonderland opened, the M4 was not even built. That sort of infrastructure came later. The M1 is already there and is acknowledged as one of Australia's busiest  highways between a population of 5 million, 350,000 on the Central Coast and another 700,000 in the Hunter. Being smack in the middle of a catchment area of 6 million people is a powerful consideration in my reckoning and with the road infrastructure already being in existence it certainly makes one think. 

The knock on effects for the Central Coast would be hugely positive. Gosford to Sommersby is just 15 minutes away by road. 

 

I just do not think that we can casually dismiss this idea for a future site. It will 99% most likely never happen but I can certainly see the merits of it being considered and I also think a strong business case could be made for one.

On 21/05/2024 at 4:38 PM, Brad2912 said:

I’d have it in the horrendous choices category tbh…

or maybe the “this site would make for a good business park in 5 years” category 

The best thing I can say about this comment is thanks for your input. 

Edited May 22 by Jobe

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

5 hours ago, Jobe said:

Australia's Wonderland when it began in 1985 was probably in a far worse position when it opened- and it had the same issues that were probably more disadvantageous  than what a site at Sommersby would be. Australia's Wonderland opened with no rail links, no close connection to any major airport and at the time the road infrastructure was far inferior than what we have today. I just think that as a ground up site, it has its advantages. 

But also a different time. The drive from Sydney Central to Wonderland would have taken around 45 minutes down the Great Western Highway and Parramatta Roads (which google confirms when you avoid highways and tolls). By contrast using the major highways (as that's really your only option) getting to Somersby would take around double that time, with google showing 90 minutes to arrive on a Saturday morning.

So you're already comparing apples with helicopters.

But go further - in 1989, flights to London were around $2300 return, which is about $5800 in today's currency. And this was at a time when the average adult weekly wage was $536.50

Today you can get flights to London for around $1400, and the average adult weekly wage is now $1958. So to compare costs - something that used to cost more than 4 week's wages can now be bought in a week, with your entire 1989 paycheck still left over.

 

My point is - Wonderland grew at a time when local entertainment was sought after as foreign entertainment was simply unattainable for the average person. Flying to the goldcoast was a treat in the 80s, with most Sydney based families opting for the 12-14 hour drive up the pacific highway, stopping at Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Kempsey or another mid-NSW place on the road trip to the GC. 

Now, at a time when you can get flights for under $100 to the GC and be there in less than the 90 minutes it would take you to drive to the Central Coast - its a big ask to think people are going to head that far. Parks that established in the 80s have created the destinations around them, but newer operators tend to spring up closer to the services that support them.

But this would be a major player in the park game. Disney, Universal would have the pulling power to get people to drive  \ travel that far, right?

2024 - Sydney to Somersby - 98km

1955 - LAX to Disneyland California - 55km

1971 - Orlando Airport to Walt Disney World - 27km

1983 - Tokyo Haneda to Tokyo Disneyland - 21km

1985 - Sydney Airport to Wonderland - 40km

1992 - Paris Airport to Disneyland Paris - 44km

2016 - Shanghai PVG Airport to Shanghai Disney - 26km

2005 - Hong Kong Airport to Hong Kong Disney - 18km

2011 - Singapore Airport to Universal Singapore - 25km

2021 - Beijing Airport to Universal Beijing - 37km

 

The problem with your comparison is that the argument to be made today for Somersby as a site of a major international tourist destination is based out of what worked for a park built almost 40 years ago (and closed 20 years ago), and a lot has changed since then including the proliferation of cheap flights making international destinations more attainable, in some cases for less money that it would cost to holiday near Gosford.

And while even if the location having all the benefits of the mid-80's going for it was sufficient of an argument... (which it isn't) it still lies more than DOUBLE the distance from the closest international airport when compared to all the big parks that have opened in over 50 years.

 

[Gazza]

Quote

Now, at a time when you can get flights for under $100 to the GC and be there in less than the 90 minutes it would take you to drive to the Central Coast - its a big ask to think people are going to head that far. Parks that established in the 80s have created the destinations around them, but newer operators tend to spring up closer to the services that support them.

I can see where you are coming from, but it would be $400 in flights for a family of 4 (If you fly at 11am on a Tuesday) and 90 mins flying (If you ignore the time taken to drive and check in to the airport) still makes it more of an undertaking.

I think people do drive if the park is worth it,  Jamberoo and Gumbuya demonstrate that, and heck its an hours drive for most of Brisbane when heading to the GC parks.

At the very least, I'd think the Central coast area could support a water park, and the case may improve if the HSR to Newcastle is ever built.

As for a dry park, yeah with Sydney being so expensive, it would probably be out at Bradfield, but fortunately since Sydney has expanded westwards, its now closer to more people than Wonderland was when it closed. 

 

 

Edited May 22 by Gazza

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

1 hour ago, Gazza said:

I can see where you are coming from, but it would be $400 in flights for a family of 4 (If you fly at 11am on a Tuesday) and 90 mins flying (If you ignore the time taken to drive and check in to the airport) still makes it more of an undertaking.

Sure, most families aren't going to book a spur of the moment weekend away at the GC, but they are more likely to book a week up there, hit the 4+ Major Attractions and get value out of those flights on a per day basis that far exceeds that of a 3 hour round trip to Gosford for the day.

Jamberoo and Gumbuya are out of the way, but they've also established themselves in a different era. Less than an hour is the yardstick I would use for the most part. Heck i'm about 90 minutes from the GC parks these days and I rarely visit unless i'm catching up with friends and family who are in town on a holiday.

The 'if you build it they will come' mantra checks out, especially if its one of the bigger players in the game because their reputation is known - but conversely, the bigger players have shown that they want to sit closer to major transport infrastructure, and gosford is never getting an international airport to make that viable.

 

[Gazza]

I just think there is a middle ground for family entertainment between "Going Bowling or to the Movies" or "Going away for a few days to the GC"

It's not necessarily about "value" per day, its about cost in absolute terms, and time.

For me, 3-4 weeks in Europe or America works out better value per day than flying to Sydney or Melbourne for a long weekend as well, but I'll still do the long weekends because I don't always have weeks spare or several thousand $$$ available for a bigger, but better value trip.

[Jobe]

On 23/05/2024 at 8:46 AM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

The problem with your comparison is that the argument to be made today for Somersby as a site of a major international tourist destination is based out of what worked for a park built almost 40 years ago (and closed 20 years ago), and a lot has changed since then including the proliferation of cheap flights making international destinations more attainable, in some cases for less money that it would cost to holiday near Gosford.

And while even if the location having all the benefits of the mid-80's going for it was sufficient of an argument... (which it isn't) it still lies more than DOUBLE the distance from the closest international airport when compared to all the big parks that have opened in over 50 years.

 

Yeah I get your logic here if we were specifcally talking about an attraction that was targeting international tourism as its main drawcard. That is 100% true. Specifically if its Disney or Universal or even Legoland. 

However, when Wonderland was opened , it was built for the local population and market. The same could also be said for Dreamworld , Seaworld and Movieworld even now. ( with the exception of the NZ market). The majority of their marketing is pushed towards a domestic target audience with internationals being drawn there as a secondary consideration.

I am thinking of a new build park at Somersby that is also targeting just the local population as their major concern. This precludes the need for being near a major airport. 

However, being in the best possible space for local population visits is the most attractive option here and hence why the Somersby site should be considered to be a viable option. Being smack bang in the middle of a catchment area of 6 million people is a strong reason to consider. This catchment area is also twice the size of the local population base for Brisbane and the Gold Coast combined-namely Brisbane at 2.2 million and the Gold Coast at 600,000. 3 Million versus 6 million is a powerful argurment for consideration when looking at this. This certainly evens out when you take into account the number of tourist visits for the Gold Coast over a year at 3.7 million but it certainly places both sites on a fairly even keel in terms of catchment numbers. These numbers do not include any out of town tourist numbers that would also potentially visit the site from Sydney tourist numbers of which there would be a further 3 million to add into the mix ( both domestic and international)

Time wise lets look-

Newcastle/Hunter to Somersby - 80 minutes

Sydney CBD to Sommersby - 70 minutes

Blacktown to Somersby - 62 minutes

Parramatta to Somersby -64 minutes

Even Campbelltown to Somersby is around 90 minutes.

The entire Sydney basin is within easy reach of a site at Somersby.

All of these major population bases are connected by far better roads than when Wonderland was built in the 80's. The infrastructure to get to Somersby are on Motorways that are acknowledged as some of the best in the nation. Travelling by car is not an impediment here since the times to travel are more than reasonable for a major attraction for any of the locals that live in the target catcment area.

We have already seen that people will travel locally for a decent attraction. We know the need in NSW for a theme park the size of Wonderland is needed. Local people within that 6 million catchment base could easily fit this in for a day trip and it would be far cheaper than travelling to the Gold Coast by flight. Its easier to organise and we know that locals will first and foremost , support their local park. Why else do VRTP offer a local pass for their properties?

The Gold Coast parks do not have fantastic public transport options- its mainly buses or coaches with no rail options. Light Rail will be a good addition to this if it ever gets off the ground but the majority of people drive to the parks. This would be the same for any attraction at Somersby and would be very comparable to the GC sites. Of course, PT would be established if there was an attraction and its only 15 minutes to Somersby from Gosford Train station where a major hub could be easily established.

Jamberoo and Gumbuya are certainly further from their customer bases and yet people are still willing to travel to them. Both parks are surviving and thriving.

Have they had time to establish this? Certainly for Jamberoo but I would argue that Gumbuya has forged their own identity and loyal customer base very recently in the last few years since they expanded and transformed into the park that it is. There is nothing stopping a new attraction/park from doing the same thing right now. Gumbuya has proven this and it would of course be dependent on what was offered. If Wonderland was opened today on a site in Somersby do we really think that it would not attract a sizeable interest and following from the 6 million people it was targeting? I dont think so - the interest in it would be huge and local people and families would definitely travel for it since that it is quite reasonable to do so.

I just think that IF NSW were to ever get another ground up theme park, a site at Somersby would have to figure in any planning or thinking. It simply has a lot of boxes that it ticks, espcially in relation to other options and I do not think it is one that can be summarily dismissed out of hand. When you dig a little deeper, the pros for a site at Somersby do stack up for mine. Its all pie in the sky stuff of course, and I think its a long way off before another theme park is even considered for Sydney and NSW. Sad as that is.

 

 

 

[Cactus_Matt]

Do I need to say this again, there will never be a Disney Park in Australia in our life times, there will never be a Universal theme park in Australia in our lifetime, heck there will never be a Six Flags parks in our lifetimes because apparently Australians are somehow allergic to theme parks based on all the evidence that's come before. Australian sucks THE END.

[jjuttup]

4 hours ago, Cactus_Matt said:

Do I need to say this again, there will never be a Disney Park in Australia in our life times, there will never be a Universal theme park in Australia in our lifetime, heck there will never be a Six Flags parks in our lifetimes because apparently Australians are somehow allergic to theme parks based on all the evidence that's come before. Australian sucks THE END.

Since when does population=allergies?

[djmcbell]

13 hours ago, Cactus_Matt said:

Do I need to say this again, there will never be a Disney Park in Australia in our life times, there will never be a Universal theme park in Australia in our lifetime, heck there will never be a Six Flags parks in our lifetimes because apparently Australians are somehow allergic to theme parks based on all the evidence that's come before. Australian sucks THE END.

The Gold Coast parks are normally pretty full, and seeing growth and investment. I'd say that Australia likes theme parks well enough, but the population can't support a Disney (or indeed a Universal). Compare Disneyland Paris's 2019 attendance (about 9.75 million) to the population of Australia (26 million). And that's Paris, widely regarded as Disney's "black sheep". Movie World got 1.4 million visitors in 2016. Considering the population of Australia, size of the country etc that's not bad.

Now if suddenly every third Australian said they'd visit once a year, or multiple times per year, Disney would be here like a shot. But there are lots of other countries who'd say the same.

We do know Disney has done their homework - the Sydney project (more of an entertainment district) nearly went through some years back, and apparently they also scouted out Avalon. But ultimately, they did their homework and decided that the numbers didn't quite work out.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

Yeah I get your logic here if we were specifcally talking about an attraction that was targeting international tourism as its main drawcard.

Just to be clear, there's no if. The whole discussion has been about an international park chain building locally. That's even the title of the thread.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

However, when Wonderland was opened , it was built for the local population and market. The same could also be said for Dreamworld , Seaworld and Movieworld even now. ( with the exception of the NZ market)

Yes, it could. But as i've already said, most of those parks were built and established in a different time.

On 23/05/2024 at 8:46 AM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

My point is - Wonderland grew at a time when local entertainment was sought after as foreign entertainment was simply unattainable for the average person.

As for the population

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

being in the best possible space for local population visits is the most attractive option here and hence why the Somersby site should be considered to be a viable option. Being smack bang in the middle of a catchment area of 6 million people is a strong reason to consider

You've said this before:

On 23/05/2024 at 2:31 AM, Jobe said:

The M1 is already there and is acknowledged as one of Australia's busiest  highways between a population of 5 million, 350,000 on the Central Coast and another 700,000 in the Hunter. Being smack in the middle of a catchment area of 6 million people is a powerful consideration in my reckoning and with the road infrastructure already being in existence it certainly makes one think. 

The problem I have with these figures is - building on the site of 350,000, with a further 700,000 to the north of it, while having the 5 Million from Sydney around 90 minutes away (or more for the southern areas) doesn't make sense. It isn't "smack bang" in the middle, its on the northern fringe. Building out near Badgery's, or somewhere near Castlereagh would make more sense - build near the 5 Million locals, not the 350,000 locals.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

This catchment area is also twice the size of the local population base for Brisbane and the Gold Coast combined-namely Brisbane at 2.2 million and the Gold Coast at 600,000.

The difference of course being that in both population migration numbers and tourism numbers, people want to be in Brisbane and the Gold Coast. I don't even know many sydneysiders that want to be in Gosford.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

3 Million versus 6 million is a powerful argurment for consideration when looking at this.

I buy this if you build in the sydney basin. If you build 90 minutes away, then you also need to include the Sunshine Coast, Ipswich, half of the Lockyer Valley, Somerset, Noosa, and half a dozen other council areas. The population is still smaller - but again it isn't a fair comparison and what you're suggesting is akin to counting all of greater brisbane when you're building halfway to Gympie.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

The infrastructure to get to Somersby are on Motorways that are acknowledged as some of the best in the nation.

Bahahahahahahahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

We know the need in NSW for a theme park the size of Wonderland is needed.

Don't make the mistake of conflating a need with a want. The state has managed fine for 20 years without it. Even when the likes of Ammar Khan proposed it, few MPs gave it more than lip service. Outside of an enthusiast viewpoint, I don't think NSW "needs" a theme park, especially one the size of Wonderland.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

Its easier to organise and we know that locals will first and foremost , support their local park.

Wet N Wild Sydney never made its target numbers. While Raging Waters may be doing better, its arguably because VRTP took the loss on the establishment in the first place. Plenty of locals visit that park. Plenty of others avoid it like the plague, and it's in the centre of the catchment.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

Why else do VRTP offer a local pass for their properties?

Dreamworld do it too. Why else? because the $99 passes showed both companies that people won't pay $400 for an annual pass, but will pay something less than that. They drop the price to get people through the gate because people just weren't coming at the higher price points. 

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

This would be the same for any attraction at Somersby and would be very comparable to the GC sites.

Those who holiday on the GC typically stay less than 30 minutes from the parks. Nobody is staying at North Lakes for their GC holiday. And those who don't have cars fly into the airport and use buses, which are also 30 minutes away.

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

Jamberoo and Gumbuya are certainly further from their customer bases and yet people are still willing to travel to them. Both parks are surviving and thriving.

Objection your honour, asked and answered.

On 23/05/2024 at 11:04 AM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Jamberoo and Gumbuya are out of the way, but they've also established themselves in a different era. Less than an hour is the yardstick I would use for the most part.

 

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

I would argue that Gumbuya has forged their own identity and loyal customer base very recently in the last few years since they expanded and transformed into the park that it is. There is nothing stopping a new attraction/park from doing the same thing right now.

They had existing infrastructure, it was already an attraction - it was just upgraded. Big upgrades yes, but it was not a greenfields site. 

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

If Wonderland was opened today on a site in Somersby do we really think that it would not attract a sizeable interest and following from the 6 million people it was targeting?

If Wonderland was opened in Somersby, I would argue it wasn't targeting 6 million people. I'd honestly call it a fools errand. Unless it had a significant IP behind it, it wouldn't work. 

 

On 24/05/2024 at 12:45 PM, Jobe said:

When you dig a little deeper, the pros for a site at Somersby do stack up for mine.

You're stacking the pros, but you're pretending that the cons don't exist because of what other parks did 40 years ago that wouldn't work today. The cons have been displayed for you pretty clearly. they also stack up. Perhaps its a balancing act and the line between them is a thin one, but other places, better positioned near international airports, in the centre of 5 million people instead of 90 minutes away from them are far more likely. I do think your bias has shown a little too strongly and you need to acknowledge that may be playing a factor.

On 25/05/2024 at 6:14 PM, djmcbell said:

the population can't support a Disney (or indeed a Universal).

Universal has recently been playing with the idea of smaller experiences and facilities. I think the main reason people are fielding the universal idea is that they've already shown an interest in doing so.

 

On 25/05/2024 at 6:14 PM, djmcbell said:

We do know Disney has done their homework - the Sydney project (more of an entertainment district) nearly went through some years back, and apparently they also scouted out Avalon. But ultimately, they did their homework and decided that the numbers didn't quite work out.

Wow, and both of these options were very close to established major airports, weren't they?

[wikiverse]

The trend for Disney and Universal is to go bigger not smaller.  They don't want to just build parks, they want to build resorts.  They want to make 100% of the revenue you spend on your holiday from hotels, food, drinks, parking, airport transfers... etc.  They want to build destination parks that keep you on company property for the entire duration of your stay.

When they build parks, they're usually joint ventures that are majority owned by local governments.  No Australian govt (state or federal) want one of these companies consuming 100% of an international/interstate tourist's spending.  They want them to spread it around the local communities, so they will never support a large scale park in Australia.

The local population is too small to sustain a park of that scale anywhere in Australia, if it could, Dreamworld would have expanded to fill their available land and done a licensing deal with one of the major studios (like Universal).

As for international tourists, Australia is really, really far away and expensive to get to.  Our nearest neighbours are generally poor/developing countries, and the ones that aren't already have Disney and/or Universal parks (Singapore, HK, China, Japan).  A Korean or Vietnamese person wanting a Disney or Universal experience isn't going to come to Australia, they're going to to an Asian park or make a one-in-a-lifetime trip to the US.

I personally like that we can have parks like Dreamworld and Gumbaya (even Aussie World) that are smaller and have their own unique vibe.  I'd like to encourage them to to better themed experiences and tap into unique Australian stories and experiences that you can't get in the rest of the world, rather than just cloned experiences from a park 6-10 hours flight away.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

35 minutes ago, wikiverse said:

The trend for Disney and Universal is to go bigger not smaller. 

For Disney, yes. Universal on the other hand has shown an interest in creating smaller properties in tourist hotspots...

Universal opening year-round horror experience in Vegas: What we know (usatoday.com)

 

[Ashley Jeffery]

More delusion.

 

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/open-for-business-victorian-mp-david-limbricks-call-to-tourism-minister-as-plans-for-aussie-disneyland-revealed/news-story/0f2f2c7f0d8ec97916b1e66f24e48081

[Cactus_Matt]

5 hours ago, Ashley Jeffery said:

More delusion.

 

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/open-for-business-victorian-mp-david-limbricks-call-to-tourism-minister-as-plans-for-aussie-disneyland-revealed/news-story/0f2f2c7f0d8ec97916b1e66f24e48081

 

I lived in Frankston for 12 years; I can assure you it is actually one of the Unhappiest Places On Earth*

 

*excluding active war zones, prisons and sites of terrorism and natural disasters.

[STRAWS]

Very slow news day today the delusion continue.

 

 

 

 

 

[downunder]

Frankston sounds like a place Mickey would get mugged and robbed lol. Disney in Australia seems to be becoming a trope of slow news days. Perhaps Universal doing one of their smaller park installations is more realistic.

Just a hypothetical, is there enough vacant space at Docklands to accommodate a full-scale Disney park? Just speaking for myself from a tourist perspective, I already love that the major sporting venues are in the CBD and so easy to get to. Let alone a large-scale park.

[Baconjack]

8 hours ago, downunder said:

Frankston sounds like a place Mickey would get mugged and robbed lol. Disney in Australia seems to be becoming a trope of slow news days. Perhaps Universal doing one of their smaller park installations is more realistic.

Just a hypothetical, is there enough vacant space at Docklands to accommodate a full-scale Disney park? Just speaking for myself from a tourist perspective, I already love that the major sporting venues are in the CBD and so easy to get to. Let alone a large-scale park.

Paramount tried building a park at docklands in the late 90s but was the victim of horrible timing and no one wanted to finance it. The land it was meant to go on was pretty small - don't think it would be enough for a castle park, and it's being used as railway facilities iirc

Edited June 6 by Baconjack

[TBoy]

48 minutes ago, Baconjack said:

Paramount tried building a park at docklands in the late 90s but was the victim of horrible timing and no one wanted to finance it. The land it was meant to go on was pretty small - don't think it would be enough for a castle park, and it's being used as railway facilities iirc

Looking back at it it seems interesting, what would've happened if it was built? I found some concept art while researching:

Reportedly it would feature a CityWalk/Downtown Disney style area with restaurants and a 16-screen cinema as well as 6 working soundstages operated by Crawfords, which even had partners such as Channel 7 and Global Television signed on. The park would have attractions such as a Studio Tour as well as restaurants/attractions based on Star Trek, Happy Days, Top Gun and Nickelodeon. So more like Universal than the former Paramount Parks.

I think it was funding that killed it, Viacom had a majority interest but some was to be funded by other partners such as WIN Television (who owned Crawfords), however the apart from Viacom/WIN the rest was private equity/banks. IIRC some of the plans got blocked causing some of the equity partners to drop out, cancelling it.

Though I do wonder what our landscape would look like if it was built. We could be seeing a Cedar Fair park down here if it got sold like the ones in the US.