Australian Ride Safety Culture

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

11 hours ago, Noxegon said:

It's amazing how efficient you can be when every extra passenger is more money

Our health and safety culture tends to prevent that sort of speed and intensity. While I bemoan how slow our operations are just as much as the rest of us, I really would prefer we didn't put ops under pressure that may lead to critical safety errors.

7 hours ago, iwerks said:

(Abyss was only running one train). 

Wait - isn't Abyss a multi-car coaster like Green Lantern and Scooby? 

[Gazza]

29 minutes ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

I really would prefer we didn't put ops under pressure that may lead to critical safety errors.

But don't the rides these days basically prevent you from sending a train if both the belt and the restraint aren't in a safe position?

Of course, safety is the #1 priority, but having heaps of random pauses and gaps between each step of the process wouldn't enhance safety either.

 

[New display name]

24 minutes ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

I really would prefer we didn't put ops under pressure that may lead to critical safety errors.

Checking restraints is not rocket science.  Rides have more advanced safety system then they ever have had before and it’s probably the only industry in Australia that don’t take advantage of it.  Corkscrew was a great example of people manually having to lock and unlock the restraints and I would wager a bet the people who operated Corkscrew in the 80’s could load and unload a train faster then would ever happen on Rivals today.

@Gazzais right.

[Guest 239]

I feel most of our local procedures are security theatre to placate guests who have little idea of how theme park rides work. Modern theme park attractions are incredibly safe but after an event such as TRR people need that extra performance to feel peace of mind. 

[New display name]

Around 475 amusement parks in America but apparently Australia knows better.

Edited January 24, 2023 by New display name

[Dean Barnett]

1 hour ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

I really would prefer we didn't put ops under pressure that may lead to critical safety errors.

The extra measures they take.. for rivals for example of the RFID thing and seatbelts for the trains.. is just safety theatre. The train won't dispatch if the restraints aren't locked. Visual checks to see if the guests are seated properly and not holding/wearing something inappropriate is the only thing required to prevent a "critical safety error". I've been on plenty of coasters that just do only a visual check.

The seatbelt is not even required

Most parks that are really good at operations just pull up on restraints to check they're locked - then move on. 

Here that process is in some cases operators putting their entire body weight pushing down on the restraint, then pulling up, then scanning the RFID thingy. I'm surprised they didn't invest in another RFID thingy to reset the row - instead of calling out to the panel op.

Here's a video of a the same train model as rivals dispatching trains in under 30 seconds - and it's still completely safe! Imagine rivals pumping through 2500 people an hour. I haven't been to the parks in a while but I've heard that dispatches can be around 5 mins between.. which would be around 10% of that.

The only difference between Europa and Australia is the GP can be more apprehensive, but there's no need for constant theatre which slows operations, makes everyone angry and ruins days. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Dean Barnett

[joz]

I'm a bit busy to reply in depth. I just want to say that there are some good points in this thread. Security theatre is not one of them.

[New display name]

3 minutes ago, joz said:

I'm a bit busy to reply in depth. I just want to say that there are some good points in this thread. Security theatre is not one of them.

So you wouldn't ride a ride anywhere in the world that doesn't have a seatbelt attached too?

[Brad2912]

12 minutes ago, Dean Barnett said:

makes everyone angry and ruins days.

If safety procedures are making people angry and ruining their day, the issue isn’t the procedures, it’s the people. 

[New display name]

1 minute ago, Dean Barnett said:

(except for the marginal drop in express passes I guess)

It's defiantly in MW,SW, & DW's interest for people to buy fast passes.

[Dean Barnett]

You could have a happy medium

[New display name]

Make operations so bad it forces people to spend more money to ride a ride they have already paid to ride is genius.

It's like people haven't played Roller Coaster Tycoon .😂

18 minutes ago, Brad2912 said:

If safety procedures are making people angry and ruining their day, the issue isn’t the procedures, it’s the people. 

Unnecessary safety procedures.

Edited January 25, 2023 by New display name

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

59 minutes ago, Gazza said:

But don't the rides these days basically prevent you from sending a train if both the belt and the restraint aren't in a safe position?

Of course, safety is the #1 priority, but having heaps of random pauses and gaps between each step of the process wouldn't enhance safety either.

 

Look - i'm the first person to complain about slow ops, but I also know what happens when you encourage people to do their jobs faster than they should. It's a double edged sword here with no correct answer. Are we being too cautious? Are we being too risky? where is the line, and who falls on that sword when something happens and the investigation discovers the line wasn't far enough (or too far) ?

56 minutes ago, New display name said:

Corkscrew was a great example of people manually having to lock and unlock the restraints and I would wager a bet the people who operated Corkscrew in the 80’s could load and unload a train faster then would ever happen on Rivals today.

Back in those days, Corkscrew had a line for each train row too. I don't know at what point we decided that the entire train's worth of people had to be counted in by the operator, but the safety system was also a bit more rudimentary. (I'm assuming here based on my knowledge of the Demon at Wonderland, but I imagine the systems were similar) - The harness locking mechanism on each train car was a foot pedal, pushed down to unlock, and pulled up (usually by a golf putter style device or by foot) and this engaged \ disengaged the ratchet locking mechanism. These pedals had small reflectors (like a bike reflector) mounted on the outside edge.

As the train dispatched from the station, an IR beam would 'count' the number of train carriages that passed it to ensure the lock pedal was in the correct position for dispatch, and the ride would fault (lift would shut down) if any of those pedals were missed in the count.

Such a simplistic system, but also one that can fail in an unsafe state, as the ride is already moving. Also, even if the pedal was in the locked position, the harness still needed to be pulled\pushed down onto the rider, and i've seen Demon dispatch with harnesses in the 'fully up' position.

 

Back in the 80's, we also saw rides from overseas, and copied them over here, without regard for the lessons the overseas professionals had learned in development. This is what gave us TRRR. 

This is why our jurisdiction has higher requirements for health and safety than overseas jurisdictions - because we don't accept even one person getting hurt as acceptable.

Anyone in management who advocates for 'faster' operations will be crucified as soon as anyone is injured as a result. 

[New display name]

14 minutes ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Back in the 80's, we also saw rides from overseas, and copied them over here, without regard for the lessons the overseas professionals had learned in development. This is what gave us TRRR. 

This is why our jurisdiction has higher requirements for health and safety than overseas jurisdictions - because we don't accept even one person getting hurt as acceptable.

Anyone in management who advocates for 'faster' operations will be crucified as soon as anyone is injured as a result. 

I don't know any Rapids ride that removed 2 out of 3 boards on a lift hill to take the weight off the motor.  (This is an Australiana thing) If they had copied everything from overseas on the design, DW maybe wouldn't be treading water right now.

 

Anyway, you can't use DW as an example because DW didn't listen to anybody.

I don't really know why you are telling me about Corkscrew locking system?

[joz]

1 hour ago, New display name said:

So you wouldn't ride a ride anywhere in the world that doesn't have a seatbelt attached too?

I'll appeal to your intelligence on this one and see yourself if that is what I said.

[Gazza]

I think perhaps the solution is to design procedures in such a manner that it is easy for staff to work efficiently and staff members arent "rushing" to do a good job.

Like if you look at the videos @Dean Barnettposted of Europa park, the staff aren't exactly running on the platform to do their checks. In fact they look quite relaxed and comfortable with their work.

The other point I'd like to make is that rides CAN go fast here when required. Eg Scooby when it has all cars on by definition has to load and check quickly or else it causes a backup and then a cascade stop with the block system. And even if the line is long, it still is always moving because it runs pretty well IMO.

I think it would help to do the following on major rides at our parks.

-Always ensure the load gates have a couple of groups staged. Should never be a situation where the train is just sitting in the station empty and the sorter is still letting people in. No sacrifice in safety to do this, since everyone is behind the gates.

-Explain the safety rules more regularly, instead of when the train is sitting there and people are waiting behind the gates. It can waste 10 to 20 seconds when the train is parked. Instead, perhaps have an auto spiel saying something like "For those of you joining us, please do this, this and this"
They dont need to "stop everything" for the briefing.

At Cheddar Point staff on the platform have a headset and loudspeaker so they aren't constantly having to yell strain their voice to explain the rules. They are able to explain in quite a catchy and friendly manner, and people follow.

-Open the gates as soon as the train arrives. The people coming on actually encourages people to vacate the seats quicker. No sacrifice in safety here because the train cannot dispatch with more than 1 person in the seat, so extra people clear out quite well.

At the moment some rides wait until everyone is well and truly out the exit before opening the airgates.

 

Eg In that video of Europa park, on the Mack water coaster you can see people are filing through, entering and exiting simultaneously, which works very well.

-At some parks, the operators will start moving down the train and close harnesses for you.

Those nips and tucks would help create a smoother flow imo.

The goal isn't "Faster Operations", it's "Higher Capacity"

Edited January 25, 2023 by Gazza

[New display name]

12 minutes ago, joz said:

I'll appeal to your intelligence on this one and see yourself if that is what I said.

Your intelligence should understand what I was getting out.  I've seen ride manufactures say, seat belts are totally unnecessary and are sometimes installed to make the guest feel safer at the park's request.  Do people really think Mack is only installing safe coasters in Australian parks?

[Gazza]

BTW Have seatbelts become optional again now too? Big Dipper and Leviathan don't have them.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Gazza

[New display name]

1 minute ago, Gazza said:

BTW Have seatbelts become optional again now too? Big Dipper and Leviathan don't have them.

I think they have always been optional.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

1 hour ago, New display name said:

I don't really know why you are telling me about Corkscrew locking system?

You referred to corkscrew being manual locking, and betting the 80's ops crew could load really fast. I was explaining the process to explain the flaws - this is why these systems were replaced with more failsafe systems that aren't reliant on an operator's intervention to ensure safety.

1 hour ago, Gazza said:

Scooby when it has all cars on by definition has to load and check quickly or else it causes a backup and then a cascade stop with the block system.

Yes, that "MUST SEND" light on the console is a really good motivator - but does that not then hamper operations because they'll end up sending empties to keep ahead of the cascade?

It seems to me also that this is a big reason why they don't run all cars very often. Even in the January peak season, the 'reduced capacity' sign was out - and I think they were only running half the cars they normally have.

1 hour ago, Gazza said:

-Open the gates as soon as the train arrives. The people coming on actually encourages people to vacate the seats quicker. No sacrifice in safety here because the train cannot dispatch with more than 1 person in the seat, so extra people clear out quite well.

Yeah this is probably my biggest bugbear, and is clearly a simple fix that doesn't impact safety.

1 hour ago, Brad2912 said:

That’s a massive over exaggeration. Firstly no individual is paying $400 to enter. 

It's not an exaggeration. It just takes perspective. Few people are visiting solo, unless passholders where the price factor is less relevant. Most people buying day tickets are coming in a group - a couple at least, if not a family. Single day tickets at the gate are currently $129 per person. The standard "Family" of 2a2c is going to set you back more than $400 for the day.

1 hour ago, Brad2912 said:

even in the highest peak, you are not only getting on 2-3 rides in a day

Can assure you, with friends who visited from Sydney over the holiday period, they only got 3 rides due to rides going down, early closures of queuelines when they were large lines, etc. They didn't stop for lunch either.

 

[New display name]

@DaptoFunlandGuyI know the new system is a better system and that is why Corkscrew is my example.  A more manual intensive system, that was more likely to fail, that the staff could load and unload guest quicker than I have ever seen achieved on Rivals.

[Gazza]

Quote

Yes, that "MUST SEND" light on the console is a really good motivator - but does that not then hamper operations because they'll end up sending empties to keep ahead of the cascade?

You need to see the forest for the trees.

Overall if Scooby is pumping, then the occasional empty pair of cars isn't huge setback in the scheme of things.

I think the stated capacity of Scooby is 1000 pph. Say you had to send an empty pair every 10 mins to catch up. Thats 48 out of 1000. Boo hoo.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Gazza

[New display name]

How about getting rid of item storage from the exit platforms?   

1. Gates open.

2. Step into train.

3. Step out of train.

4. Put loose items into boxes.

5. Step back into train.

🤦‍♀️

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by New display name

[Noxegon]

8 hours ago, Brad2912 said:

If safety procedures are making people angry and ruining their day, the issue isn’t the procedures, it’s the people. 

I think you’re being a bit harsh with that to be honest. 

Let’s look at this from the (admittedly rather narrow) perspective of a coaster enthusiast visiting from Europe. This person has been to a few hundred parks, and has been looking forward to the ones in Australia for years. 

They arrive at a park and discover long wait times. Stuff happens, so it goes. Then they make it to a ride station and discover that the Intamin that would dispatch every minute or so in the rest of the world is going out at around 20% of that speed due to additional checks and faffing about. They’re only going to get on a tiny fraction of the rides that they’d hoped for - because, as someone else said in this thread, Australia knows better.

Yes, they will be angry. And objectively I can understand that.

Safety is important, but it’s completely possible to be both safe and efficient.

[Noxegon]

7 hours ago, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Look - i'm the first person to complain about slow ops, but I also know what happens when you encourage people to do their jobs faster than they should.

I think the key point here is “faster than they should”. From my own experience at Green Lantern, operations suddenly got much faster after the queue closed for the evening. Working quickly clearly wasn’t a problem then, so why was it an issue for the rest of the operating day?