Big Thunder Mountain Railway

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Precisely. Regardless of what the cast member's training manual said, the accident could have happened with or without the extra lines in the training manual. The quotes you listed detail that Disney was to make an amendment to the manual in regards to "funny noises" as a result of the enquiry. it was not a cause of the accident. The loose bolts on the upstop guidewheel could have failed on the very first cycle, rather than the 13th cycle. If it happened on the first cycle, it would not matter if there was an amendment to the manual. the quote I have listed is the be-all and end-all of the investigation - MAINTENANCE was at fault, and nothing more.

[Adam]

There is no doubt about it that the accident was a result of poor maintenance but every press release and report also outlines that the operators were not instructed on how to handle the situation.

Every single one of those quotes fails to take into account the fact that the train was to be taken off the track after the very next cycle.

Richard, “yellow tagging” a train was the wrong thing to do. As the reports above outline, the operators had no clear procedure to follow so they simply “tagged” the train for removal. This was not what should have been done in this situation. Yellow tagging a train that made an unusual noise was not correct procedure, it was simply a rough judgement made by ride operators. If the noise had been acted on in the correct way the ride would have closed. Understand?

I believe that what they did was perhaps the smartest and most logical thing anyone could do in their position.

It seems the Division of Occupational Safety and Health disagrees with you, the safest and most logical thing would have been to shut down the entire ride immediately – yet this was not done as there was no procedure in place (as is evident in the above reports extracted from various sources). While the ride operators did not cause the catastrophic mechanical failure that killed the young man while riding on Big Thunder Mountain, DOSH clearly outlined that the appropriate safety procedures and policies were not in place. If the procedures recommended by DOSH had been enforced before this accident, this man would still be alive. Situation on Big Thunder Mountain before DOSH recommendations...

1. A strange noise was heard on the train
2. The ride operators didn't know what to do so they simply "yellow tagged" the train
3. Train derails and kills a guest
4. Ride is out of service for six months

Same situation after DOSH recommendations...

1. A strange noise was heard on the train
2. The ride operators decided to stop the entire ride immediatly and remove the train from the track rather than "yellow tagging"
3. After a short closure, the ride is reopened, everyone still living and happy

[Bussy]

If ride operators are too scared to use the emergency stop when something is wrong, then whats the point in having it?

There is a time and a place for the e-stop. There is sometimes a fine line between over reacting and not being cautious enough.

Reading the crash report it clearly states – “Thunder Mountain attraction personnel noticed unusual sounds on the train before the crash.” I’m sure the operators would know the sound difference between a rattling side-wheel and normal operation.

Again after operating Demon thousands of times it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between a wheel that has lost all or part of its tread and something else. Also inexperienced operators may not pick up there is a strange sound until it is too late. Luckily a de-laminated wheel is nothing to worry about. "The Bus is now leaving for Fine Feathers, South Australia"

[scott]

something relevant to add to the discussion "The Bus is now leaving for Long Bottom Creek, Tasmania"

Something relevant? Do you know what the the tittle of this thread is?

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

There is no doubt about it that the accident was a result of poor maintenance

Good. Agreed. Case Closed.

but every press release and report also outlines that the operators were not instructed on how to handle the situation.

because until now there never really was a need for this to be documented. If i wanted to write a manual on the operation of a mechanical device, i cannot conceive of every possible situation arising until it has happened. i can come up with a lot of "what ifs" but im not going to think of every single thing until it happens, and i can devise a means to fix it.

Richard, “yellow tagging” a train was the wrong thing to do. As the reports above outline, the operators had no clear procedure to follow so they simply “tagged” the train for removal. This was not what should have been done in this situation. Yellow tagging a train that made an unusual noise was not correct procedure, it was simply a rough judgement made by ride operators. If the noise had been acted on in the correct way the ride would have closed. Understand?

owwww boy... bad move. bottom line adam is that it is YOU that doesnt understand. There was no reason prior to the accident to close the entire ride. the ride design allows for operators to take trains in and out of service in a matter of minutes. there was no evidence that anything was wrong with any other train, and an unexpected closure of the ride in the middle of park operation would deliver some very angry guests to the queue line, guest relations office, not to mention peeved patrons who then take their anger out in other areas of the park. what you fail to understand is that the procedure of "YELLOW TAG" (ging) is that a ride vehicle with a yellow tag is deemed unsafe for operation and taken out of service IMMEDIATELY. upon the train's return to the station on the 13th cycle, the train would have had a yellow tag applied, and been immediately shunted off into the storage area, thus taking it out of service, and removing the danger, without needing to close the entire ride. UNDERSTAND?

It seems the Division of Occupational Safety and Health disagrees with you, the safest and most logical thing would have been to shut down the entire ride immediately – yet this was not done as there was no procedure in place (as is evident in the above reports extracted from various sources).

and the various sources all get their info from the same place. Again the original link you listed to another forum source discussing this accident has one of the members talking about the press that came out that day, which dwindled over the hours after the accident as most reporters realised the amount of "conjecture and hearsay" that was being reported. find a dictionary, and look up those two words... As previously discussed, it is unnecessary to shut down an entire ride. If a gondola on Space Probe or Giant Drop is making a funny noise, do they shut down the entire ride, or just the gondola? Your logic scares me sometimes adam. Your logic suggests that if i come into a hospital with a pain in my right hand, the most logical thing to do would be to amputate the arm above the elbow.

While the ride operators did not cause the catastrophic mechanical failure that killed the young man while riding on Big Thunder Mountain, DOSH clearly outlined that the appropriate safety procedures and policies were not in place. If the procedures recommended by DOSH had been enforced before this accident, this man would still be alive.

So your entire argument is along the lines of WHAT IF the policies were in place. WHAT IF I came up to queensland to hunt you down and kill you? The procedures recommened by DOSH were not those recommended to prevent the accident occurring, nor were they made because it was the cause of the incident. During their investigation, they realised a potential flaw in the operations manual, which they suggested be corrected. The news report you listed above, which talks of "operators complaining that no procedure was in place" is reworded alarmist reporting of the media, taken direct from the DOSH report, where it states only that the cast members indicated the manual does not detail a specific procedure in the case of unusual operation. they did not "complain at the inquiry" they just answered the questions of the investigating officer which brought him to the conclusion that there was a deficiency in the manual's language.

Situation on Big Thunder Mountain before DOSH recommendations...

1. A strange noise was heard on the train
2. The ride operators didn't know what to do so they simply "yellow tagged" the train

Which under standard procedures would have prevented the accident had it not happened during the cycle in which they elected to yellow tag it. As discussed, yellow tagging the train IS taking the train out of service, and therefore removing danger

Train derails and kills a guest Ride is out of service for six months Same situation after DOSH recommendations...

1. A strange noise was heard on the train
2. The ride operators decided to stop the entire ride immediatly and remove the train from the track rather than "yellow tagging"

removing the train from the track is THE SAME THING as yellow tagging.

After a short closure, the ride is reopened, everyone still living and happy

the operators did the right thing. they are not at fault, nor is disney, as this accident was not forseeable from a simple unusual noise from the train. The operators acted with best judgement that it could possibly have been (as the ride was only just back into service after an overhaul) new parts that need time to burn in, and since the noise had not cleared up within a reasonable amount of time, they elected to take it out of service. Yes, its unfortunate that someone died Yes, it could have been prevented No, the changes to the operations manual would not necessarily have saved this persons life. Yes, the only way it could have been prevented were if maintenance had followed the correct disney procedures from the beginning Yes, it was Maintenance's fault, not disneys. The only factor that caused this accident was a failure of maintenance to understand the procedures that disney had in place. If maintenance followed and knew their procedures, there would not have been a need for cast members to have an amendment to their manuals stating "what to do if..." as if the maintenance procedures were followed, this would never occur. END OF STORY

[Adam]

If your going to keep an attraction running just to keep guests happy when your endangering their lives, it’s not the right way to go about it. The train was making an unusual sound. What could this sound be? Well, it could have been a number of factors as you suggest, but is a train supposed to make this sound under normal operation? Does it always make unusual sounds? Is it worth the risk of running this attraction when it would take less than an hour to remove this train from the track and restart the ride? Not according to DOSH and Disney’s new ride policy. It’s a theme park; safety is and should always remain the number one priority. However, it seems Disney did not properly educate their operators. If something is wrong with an aircraft, do they continue to fly it so their customers don’t get angry, or do they delay the flight to fix / further inspect the aircraft? Saying a ride shouldn’t close as it would annoy guests is absolutely ridiculous.

UNDERSTAND?

Alex, I was not making a smart-arse comment towards Richard when I said this. I simply wanted him to reply as to whether he agrees or rejects my reasoning as to why this isn't correct procedure. If he didn't "understand" or thought I was crazy then I wanted him to reply, it was not meant as offense.

the ride design allows for operators to take trains in and out of service in a matter of minutes. there was no evidence that anything was wrong with any other train, and an unexpected closure of the ride in the middle of park operation would deliver some very angry guests to the queue line, guest relations office, not to mention peeved patrons who then take their anger out in other areas of the park. what you fail to understand is that the procedure of "YELLOW TAG" (ging) is that a ride vehicle with a yellow tag is deemed unsafe for operation and taken out of service IMMEDIATELY. upon the train's return to the station on the 13th cycle, the train would have had a yellow tag applied, and been immediately shunted off into the storage area, thus taking it out of service, and removing the danger, without needing to close the entire ride. UNDERSTAND?

If this yellow card system is so great, tell me why DOSH ordered Disney to close the entire ride when a train makes an unusual sound? Could it be that the later method doesn’t cause death? I understand what the yellow tag system is Alex, but in the interests of safety, if something is not operating correctly, it should be dealt with immediately. But again, the reason it wasn’t was because Disney employees didn’t know what to do if a train wasn’t sounding normal, so they resorted to the yellow tag system. I don’t think they will make the same mistake again.

As previously discussed, it is unnecessary to shut down an entire ride.

Alex, if the only way to remove a train from Big Thunder Mountain without the ride having to complete a full circuit with passengers is to shut it down, then it is necessary.

Which under standard procedures would have prevented the accident had it not happened during the cycle in which they elected to yellow tag it. As discussed, yellow tagging the train IS taking the train out of service, and therefore removing danger

What you are suggesting is that when they yellow tag a train, the operators are taking a gamble as to whether the train will de-rail before it returns to the station? What exactly do you mean by standard procedures? You claim it not to be the fault of Disney yet you say if standard procedures were followed the accident would not have happened. You claim yellow tagging is a way of removing a dangerous carriage from service, yet passengers were boarded onto this train before the "danger" (dangerous train) could be removed.

removing the train from the track is THE SAME THING as yellow tagging.

It's not quite the same, if the ride was closed the train could be removed without having to juggle the fate of human lives.

the operators did the right thing

Of course they did. It wasn’t their fault. As I repeat – there was no clear procedure for what they should do, yellow tagging it was basically their only option. It’s Disney’s fault. Yellow tagging it was their best option. But what I am trying to say is "it's not THE best option". At the time, they were not clear on procedures, but if they had been educated on what to do, then I don't think they would have yellow carded the train. Personally, If I was waiting for Big Thunder Mountain, I would rather be turned away or having to wait a little longer than bleeding to death. And also, if I was operating the ride I would rather deal with angry guests (even if inspection showed nothing wrong with the ride) than having to deal with the death of someone, on my ride. DOSH put the accident down to two reasons - poor maintenace and incorrectly trained staff. If the ride operators were told to close the ride if they sensed something irregular (e.g. unusual sounds), do you seriously think this man would still be dead? If the answer to this question is yes, then it was not the fault of Disney. I say no. When the unusual sounds were heard the ride operator would have closed the ride as correct procedure should have outlined.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Train 2 completed 12 cycles around the track, and at SOME POINT during these cycles, several cast members noticed a noise coming from Train 2.

and in regards to the interviewing of the cast members operating the ride:

Several of those interviewed stated that they heard a noise coming from train number 2 prior to the accident. They could not identify exactly when during the 12 and one third cycles preceding the incident that they heard the noise. They also stated that the noise did not appear to be a major concern, but DURING the thirteenth cycle, while the train was IN OPERATION with PASSENGERS ONBOARD, they had decided to remove train number 2 from service for an inspection to determine the source of the noise.

The operators were not stupid. they knew what to do. They didnt need a line in a manual to tell them what to do. Nobody can tell from that report when the noise was detected. it might have only been detected on the 12th cycle... who knows? YOU certainly don't Adam... Now, stop being a disagreeable little twat that thinks he knows everything because so far the experts and non-experts alike have proven you wrong on all but one occasion. Particularly in this discussion, there is not one point you have brought up that cannot be discounted by factual evidence. Maintenance Screwed Up. Will that stop me from getting on one of the best themed coasters in the world? No. NOW SHUT THE HELL UP BEFORE I PUT A BOOT IN YOUR ASS Wheres daniel? ordinarily he would have piped up at this little twat a long time ago...

[Adam]

Daniel's an awesome dude. He wouldn't do something like that. If this could not have been prevented by ride staff, then why was Disney ordered by DOSH to retrain the ride operators and draft new procedures? Are you actually reading what I am writing? If DOSH didn’t believe this to involve the operators in any way, shape or form, then why have changes been made? You don’t change something that works Alex. Alex, some of your arguments are good, yet some are stupid. One or your arguments is that the operators didn't think the noise was dangerous - that is a very good argument, yet the other argument - if a train is full of passengers and in operation, the train should wait to return to the station before the ride is closed (and train removed) - is just stupid. If Disney doesn’t close a ride in a potentially dangerous situation just because it is loaded with passengers – then this would have to be the worse safety procedure in use. Whether a ride is full of people or not, when it’s got to stop, it’s got to stop. Maybe Alex, that’s why Disney was ordered to draft a new procedure?

The operators were not stupid. they knew what to do. They didnt need a line in a manual to tell them what to do. Nobody can tell from that report when the noise was detected. It might have only been detected on the 12th cycle... who knows? YOU certainly don't Adam...

Alex, this is really stupid. And yes, I know when the noise occurred. It occurred before the train derailed and killed an innocent man. If the noise was acted upon in the appropriate way (as is outlined in the new and safer Disney manual) the ride would have closed when the unusual sound was heard, and I’m pretty sure that when a ride is closed, it can’t derail (unless the ride was closed as the train entered an uncontrolled track section and derailed shortly after – but this was not the case with Big Thunder Mountain).

Particularly in this discussion, there is not one point you have brought up that cannot be discounted by factual evidence.

Where is the factual evidence that Disney had the correct procedures in place and the ride operators knew exactly what to do? Are you saying that you can discount a DOSH report with your own evidence? DOSH performed an intensive search on the ride Alex, and they (not me) concluded that Disney ride operators had not been properly instructed by Mr Disney. Case closed. If you want to argue with DOSH, their website is here.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

If this could not have been prevented by ride staff, then why was Disney ordered by DOSH to retrain the ride operators and draft new procedures? Are you actually reading what I am writing?

Actually, Disney received a RECOMMENDATION from the DOSH to make the amendment. In the same list of recommendations, they also suggested that trains be cycled once when entered into service, before guests are loaded on it. Now this catastrophic failure occurred on the 13th run, not the first, so what good would cycling once do? not much, but it is an extra safety measure. So is the extra line in the manual - But the DOSH recommendations DID NOT include a requirement of RETRAINING the cast operators, only the MAINTENANCE team

If DOSH didn’t believe this to involve the operators in any way, shape or form, then why have changes been made? You don’t change something that works Alex.

I used to work in an organisation that went by the mantra of "the best way discovered, so far..." Just because something works, it doesnt mean it cannot be improved on. This line in the manual just helped to outline and specify a procedure that is obviously common sense. I say common sense, because the cast members DID what this procedure currently outlines, they just did it one cycle too late. I won't go further into detail with this one for you Adam, because over several topics on these forums, it appears you have a lack of grasp of the concept of common sense.

Alex, some of your arguments are good, yet some are stupid.  

Thanks for the compliment, err... i think... Adam, Some of your arguments are stupid. yet some are worse.

One or your arguments is that the operators didn't think the noise was dangerous - that is a very good argument, yet the other argument - if a train is full of passengers and in operation, the train should wait to return to the station before the ride is closed (and train removed) - is just stupid.

The use of the LIM's on BTM's station area allows the trains to be shunted into the service siding only from the rear of the station platform, not the staging area. With another train behind it (which there definitely would have been, as that is generally how it would have been by the time it was despatched) it would be impossible to shunt this train into the siding without it doing another cycle. Further to this, information which was brought to my attention AFTER I made the original statement, indicates the cast members elected to yellow tag the train AFTER it left the station. I would assume that this means the noise was seen as being dangerous as it left the station, and was therefore beyond recall.

Alex, this is really stupid. And yes, I know when the noise occurred. It occurred before the train derailed and killed an innocent man. If the noise was acted upon in the appropriate way (as is outlined in the new and safer Disney manual) the ride would have closed when the unusual sound was heard, and I’m pretty sure that when a ride is closed, it can’t derail (unless the ride was closed as the train entered an uncontrolled track section and derailed shortly after – but this was not the case with Big Thunder Mountain).

It was acted on in the appropriate way, just not soon enough to avoid the disaster. Unless you are one of the operators charged with the operation of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad during September 2003, you have no possible way of knowing WHEN the noise was detected. Even the DOSH detailed in their report, that the noise was heard "some time between when the train was brought into service and when the accident occurred". As said just above, it might have only just been heard above all the screams and other park noises as it was dispatched on that fatal 13th cycle, which by then was too late. The ride will not close, it will simply lose a train to the service siding, so stop talking about it CLOSING ffs...

Where is the factual evidence that Disney had the correct procedures in place and the ride operators knew exactly what to do? Are you saying that you can discount a DOSH report with your own evidence? DOSH performed an intensive search on the ride Alex, and they (not me) concluded that Disney ride operators had not been properly instructed by Mr Disney. Case closed. If you want to argue with DOSH, their website is here.

i think we can direct this question to Bussy or Daniel. Lets say they detect a noise coming from Gondola 2 on Space Probe as it is despatched, or one of the rafts on snowy appears to be faulty in some way as it leaves the despatch area. There is no indication in the manual of what you should fo.... Bussy, Daniel, in those two situations, what do you do? (i have used these two situations because both rides contain numerous passenger vehicles which can operate independantly of one another.) also, your link to the DOSH doesnt work.

[Adam]

All I have to say is...

The Division has completed its investigation of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad attraction. As a result of its investigation the Division has drawn the following conclusions:    1. The fatal injuries sustained by the deceased occurred when car #1 collided with the underside of the locomotive on train #2, as described in greater detail in the Summary of Accident above.    2. The accident was caused by a mechanical failure, which occurred as the result of omission during a maintenance procedure of two required actions: The left side upstop/guide wheel on the floating axle of the locomotive # 2 was not tightened in accordance with Disneyland Resort specifications for the procedure, and safety wire following tightening of the assembly was not installed.    3. There is no evidence that the design of the BigThunderMountain attraction is unsafe.    4. There was an inadequate instruction in the Operation Guidelines as to what a ride operator is expected to do when an unusual noise is detected.    5. Use of Green and Yellow Tags on train #2 was not carried out properly as required by Disneyland Resort procedure, and on a number of occasions, the West Reliability Team had not performed the procedure properly on other rides to which the Team was assigned.      6. As of the time of the accident, Disneyland Resort procedures allowed a car to be added to the attraction without performing a test cycle with the added car.    7. An audit procedure which is part of the Disneyland Maintenance Operation Guideline was established on November 11, 2002, and was applicable to the BigThunderMountain attraction. However, the attraction was never subjected to this procedure.    8. As of the time of the accident, Disneyland Resort procedures allowed one outside machinist to sign for the work of another outside machinist to indicate completion.    9. The emergency response of the employees and medical assistance after the accident occurred was proper, and assistance occurred as soon as possible.    10. Disneyland Resort properly secured and preserved the BigThunderMountain attraction and the secured site where train #2 was relocated throughout the Division’s comprehensive investigation.

The cause of the accident was improper maintenance yet Disney had not performed any checks on the maintenance (7), and operators had not followed proper tagging procedures (5) nor had they been properly trained (4). Ultimately, I still stand by my statement, it was to a certain extent, Disney's fault. If you still believe it was no fault of Disney whatsoever, I think you should take it up with DOSH. But I am pretty sure you do agree with me Alex...

The point here is that there was not a documented procedure for the operators to follow. They weren't sure what to do.

the operators had no clear communication from Disneyland as to what they are supposed to do, in this situation.

I'm glad we could both reach an agreement I also think Bus knows what he is talking about...

An unusual noise is something that should be checked ASAP but may not require the whole ride to be shut down. Unless the operator had been advised by the supervisor that the ride was making a strange noise but was ok to run it needs to be check. The worst thing that can happen is if another operator tells them that it is ok and to not worry, because chances are the other operator has no idea what the problem is.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

The cause of the accident was improper maintenance yet Disney had not performed any checks on the maintenance (7), and operators had not followed proper tagging procedures (5) nor had they been properly trained (4).

the tagging procedures mentioned in (5) were in discussion of the maintenance crew, not the operators. (4) does not talk of the operator's training, but rather a WRITTEN instruction in the OPERATIONS MANUAL. there is no description in the report of what the AUDIT procedure was (7). Whether this was done or not, it would not have prevented the accident, because the audit procedure would not have found bolts loose and untightened on a maintenance procedure done the night before the accident. The maintenance work was signed off by a technician who did not perform the work. He was not to know the work had not been done, and it is the fault of the maintenance worker who signed off on the job, as well as the worker who did not tighten the bolts in the first place. im talking common sense here. if a ride starts emitting sparks, does an operator need a WRITTEN INSTRUCTION IN A MANUAL to know its not proper to operate the ride? No. The same applies for a strange noise coming from the train. It is obvious that the operators do not NEED the written instruction to know a bad noise is something that should be yellow tagged.... it is obvious, because the operators DID THIS without the written instruction, it was just one cycle too late. The written instruction was added simply because there was some confusion when the issue was discussed in the inquiry. The cycling of the trains was not something that was necessarily done, as I am under the impression that this would be done at the beginning of the day, to test all brakes, and mechanics in the ride, not to test the train itself, and as discussed, even if train number 2 had been cycled once before being put into service, it would not have saved a life. the person who died - yes, but another would have taken his place based on the order of the queue line. I am awaiting the reply of the DOSH at this point in time.

[Adam]

Alex, what you are writing about the operators is in disagreement with DOSH. If the operators had acted on the situation appropriately - something that doesn’t result in death or the loss of life – then there would be no need to make modifications to the operators instructions. Since the operators didn’t shut down the ride as what should have occurred, I would say the operators need extra train. DOSH agrees.

The same applies for a strange noise coming from the train. It is obvious that the operators do not NEED the written instruction to know a bad noise is something that should be yellow tagged.... it is obvious, because the operators DID THIS without the written instruction, it was just one cycle too late.

So you are suggesting should another unusual sound be heard, the train should simply be tagged? Or should the operators be trained to shut down the ride in this situation?

The cycling of the trains was not something that was necessarily done, as I am under the impression that this would be done at the beginning of the day, to test all brakes, and mechanics in the ride, not to test the train itself, and as discussed, even if train number 2 had been cycled once before being put into service, it would not have saved a life. the person who died - yes, but another would have taken his place based on the order of the queue line.

Your guessing Alex. I am going to go with DOSH on this one. You have already said it was unknown when the train made the sound, it could have happened on the first run, in which case the train would have been removed immediately (under the new procedure).

The written instruction was added simply because there was some confusion when the issue was discussed in the inquiry.

No Alex, the written instruction was added to ensure the ride operators keep the ride running safely.

m talking common sense here. if a ride starts emitting sparks, does an operator need a WRITTEN INSTRUCTION IN A MANUAL to know its not proper to operate the ride? No. The same applies for a strange noise coming from the train. It is obvious that the operators do not NEED the written instruction to know a bad noise is something that should be yellow tagged.... it is obvious

Actually your wrong. Yellow tagging a train when it makes an unusual noise is not the correct procedure. I have never read a ride manual, but I assume the majority of the procedures are in place to prevent the loss of life, rather than promote it. Since the Big Thunder Mountain manual had no such procedure (Disney’s fault) they yellow tagged the train. Alex everything you are suggesting is that the operators do not need extra training or procedures don’t need reviewing. If a strange sound occurred again, the exact same thing is likely to happen. Can you not see this Alex? If you can't work that out Alex, then I give up, I'm just glad you don't work for Disney or DOSH.

[Adam]

I just want to know what everyone thinks - dicussion can be found here Question: Do you think the new operator procedures implemented by Disney will help to prevent the same type of accident occurring in the future? Answer above: Yes or No. Thanks.

[Adam]

Have your say on this issue: http://www.parkz.com.au/forums/sh...read.php?t=1666

[bigglesworth003]

I just want to know what everyone thinks - dicussion can be found here Question: Do you think the new operator procedures implemented by Disney will help to prevent the same type of accident occurring in the future? Answer above: Yes or No.   Thanks.

Yes because it has been working for the past year and a bit since the fatality happened this is one old subject, so it seems to be working

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

POUNDS HEAD AGAINST BLUNT OBJECT

So you are suggesting should another unusual sound be heard, the train should simply be tagged? Or should the operators be trained to shut down the ride in this situation?

it could have happened on the first run, in which case the train would have been removed immediately (under the new procedure).

Actually your wrong. Yellow tagging a train when it makes an unusual noise is not the correct procedure. I have never read a ride manual, but I assume the majority of the procedures are in place to prevent the loss of life, rather than promote it. Since the Big Thunder Mountain manual had no such procedure (Disney’s fault) they yellow tagged the train.

Read the DOSH report you frickin moron. not just the bits you think will win you the argument. The tag system IS THE CORRECT PROCEDURE. MAINTENANCE WERE NOT USING THE CORRECT PROCEDURE (tagging) WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE ACCIDENT. when an operator suspects a train or passenger car is dangerous, IT IS YELLOW TAGGED AND REMOVED FROM SERVICE AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DO EVERY TIME. If space mountain had ONE car faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO Is Space Probe had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Splash Mountain had one gondola faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO If Big Thunder Mountain Railroad had one train faulty, do you think they would shut down the ride? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO What would they do? remove it from service and affix a yellow tag. how is applying a yellow tag promoting loss of life? those three statements above are all contradictory. Your argument is well thought out but it is extremely flawed. Have you been listening to the other people who posted here? Bussy commented that an unusual sound should be reported immediately, but other than that he agreed the fine line an operator had to walk on was there, and angry guests and all the rest.... I know it would be a first for you if you did so, but did you listen to what Richard had to say? For crying out loud you are as thick as two short planks. there is no getting through to you, on any subject, no matter what it is, because you must be correct in everything you do. thats why you have the piss blind arrogance to have that little statement in your damn signature. ffs. you're wrong. deal with it.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Funny that in less than a year after the accident, another similar accident occurred on big thunder mountain railroad Anaheim.

[Adam]

Ok Alex, let me ask you this. If the operators had closed the ride when they suspected something was wrong or removed the train immediately from service, would someone still have died?

[Adam]

Ok, let me ask you this. If the operators had closed the ride when they suspected something was wrong or removed the train immediately from service, would someone still have died?

[Daniel]

How about the old days of the delaminating wheel on Demon... ahhh those were the days... Each case is treated on its merits. You can't say what your actions will be unless confronted with the situation to be perfectly honest. Does the Snowy boat have people on it and what is the extent of any damage? Basically it will come down to your judgement on whether or not the ride can complete the cycle without incident. The problem with Snowy is that once it gets through the air gates, it's going to get half way or more through the course once the e-stop is pressed. If any hazard is noticed without guests, of course it's going to be removed from service and replaced immediately. I was never confronted with an incident at Snowy, so maybe Bus is better qualified to comment on that one. If there a clear problem with a ride carriage and is a potential hazard and you have the opportunity to stop the ride by all means it will be done. If the Demon was emergency stopped every time it made a weird noise when it hit lift 2, it would probably have done 1 cycle in 5. A trouble light on Demon meant jack ****. It was often as simple as some little turd burger like Flea pushing on the air gates. If it caught onto lift 2 and made it's way to the top, the cycle will be allowed to continue. Unless there was some chicken **** clown there. Although in my time I can't think of too many clowns who operated it. That all happened after I left. The bottom line is it comes down to the operators judgement and by crickey if they get it wrong there is hell to pay.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Once the operators reached a decision that the train was unsafe, they made the decision to remove the train immediately. Unfortunately, at the time of the decision, the train was already underway. As they had no indication that there was something catastrophically wrong with it, they felt it was in the best interests of operation not to e-stop the ride. An E-Stop is used only when they feel that a situation exists that is mortally unsafe, eg "if i dont press this button now, someone could be seriously injured". The indications they had were nothing but a train making a little bit of noise, which cannot be translated to "serious injury". Retrospect is always 20/20, but E-Stopping a ride like thunder mountain means there are 4 trains out there on that track of over 800 metres in length, which will need to be manually unloaded safely from various positions around the track, shut down, a maintenance visit paid to the attraction before it could be restarted. this means delays of more than 2 hours IF THERE IS NOTHING WRONG. Seriously, i tell you that the operators had no indication of a CATASTROPHIC FAULT. a noisy wheel is not necessarily something that is going to cause a catastrophy. Granted, it DID cause one, but the operator's judgement call at the time was that the train has already made 12 cycles. If it can make 12, then it can make 13, as nothing has happened yet, so for the sake of a 4 minute cycle, we get it back to the station and get it taken out of service, in the best interests of our guests, we will inconvenience them by 4 minutes, rather than what could be well over 4 hours. Should they have made this call? Yes. an E-Stop would have saved this life. Was it reasonable to assume that someone would die if they did not? No. it wasn't. Will the manual amendment save another life? probably, but if the noise is noticed AS IT DEPARTS the station, what do they do? there is no indication in the DOSH report that says if an employee is to E-Stop the attraction if they detect a noise upon despatch, or whether they are to allow the train to complete the circuit prior to tagging the train. In the interests of lower inconvenience, and the potential for operators to be incorrect, i would say the latter, allowing the train to complete its cycle before being tagged. There is nothing to say the operators did not act within the best interests of themselves, the park, and the guests, except for the dead body. There is no evidence that the operators made a misjudgement in their actions, only that the judgement came too late to save a life. And the question still remains unanswered - whether they felt the noise was serious enough to remove it before it was despatched on cycle number 13. the report seems to suggest that they did not feel it was serious enough until after it was despatched, which was too late. These amendments may save a life, in this situation, it might have, OR it might not have. there is no way to tell unless you are the operator or the investigator in this incident, and that is all that remains to be said on this issue.

[Adam]

Alex that is just stupid… seriously. If even half of what you saying is true about an operator’s priority being convenience not safety, then I can tell you I'm never going to Disneyland again. The sole reason was they didn't think the noise was dangerous, none of this convenience stuff is relevant. Daniel, Wonderbus… If you were operating Big Thunder Mountain railroad, under the new policy etc. after the crash, and you heard a carriage making an unusual or irregular sound when leaving the station, would you e-stop the ride? Or keep the ride running and risk the lives of those onboard and maybe even lose your job? I know you don't work at Disneyland, but if you take your operator experience and apply it to this situation. Thanks. Vote in the Big Thunder Mountain Poll (question located in first post)

[joz]

I don't think the policy will make the slightest difference. The problem is that a ride with as many trains BTMRR, simply identifying the train making the strange noise could prove difficult. Every cycle sounds different on many rides, due to things such as the weight distribution, newness of certain components etc. So hearing a slightly different sound on a train wouldn't necessarily suggest a problem. When the train comes back still making the noise, even if the operator notices again, there's a good chance that even a competent operator wouldn't realise it was the same train - it would take a couple of cycles before someone notices which train it was.

[Bussy]

Daniel, Wonderbus… If you were operating Big Thunder Mountain railroad, under the new policy etc. after the crash, and you heard a carriage making an unusual or irregular sound when leaving the station, would you e-stop the ride? Or keep the ride running and risk the lives of those onboard and maybe even lose your job?

The problem with most coasters with multiple trains is that it would be very difficult to identify an unusual noise because the noise from the ride would be near to constant. The other thing is while the train is entering and leaving the station there is no stress on the wheels and therefore the noise may not happen and it wouldn't be until the ride got some speed up that it could be heard. It is hard to day whether or not I would hit the e-stop because I have only operated Demon and Bush Beast and was very familiar with the sounds and idiosyncrasies of it. But a new operator might think that something is wrong when there is not. In all probability I would not hit the e-stop but would shut the ride down when it got back so that maintenance could check it out, if they blow up at me I don't care, but then again it might be something.

I was never confronted with an incident at Snowy, so maybe Bus is better qualified to comment on that one.

That was a big problem with Snowy you hit the e-stop and the boat still makes it around to the bottom of the lift. So if you hit it because there was a serious incident (someone falling in) it wouldn't make much of a difference because they would probably drown from getting stuck under a boat.

I also think Bus knows what he is talking about...

Don't think, know. "The Bus is now leaving for Yes I Know Rock, NSW"

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

i think the replies from Bus and Joz sum it up well. Adam your arguments make a good point but are nowhere near realistic or practical. Try this - go to the next show you have - i'd say go to the Sydney Royal Easter show, but that would be difficult, but up where you are it should be easy since everyone in Queensland gets a day off to go to the Brisbane show... Now go to the carnival section. I have no idea how big the brisbane carnival is, but it would have to be similar in size to Sydney... Stand right next to the station of a coaster, wild mouse or whatever, and listen to the trains coming out of the station. Pick one that had a distinctly different noise when it is despatched, then concentrate really hard on something else. You can't operate the ride, so try reading a passage from a book or magazine out loud. I say this because reading out loud engages hearing, speech and sight, which is the same thing a ride op engages. Do this for 10 minutes, and without actually looking at the track and following the car, try to pick when this SPECIFIC car comes back into the stationgets despatched again, without losing your place or slowing down your reading out loud. I assure you it is very difficult. I used to be a speech coach and vocal analyst, and to be able to do something like that, in the midst of all the different blaring music, screams, other ride noises, general background noise, and all the rest, it takes a lot of concentration and a lot of training to be able to tune into that one specific noise. The one thing I disagree with in Bussy's post there, is that he says he would close the entire ride. With BTMRR, it doesnt need to be shut down, the train only needs to be shunted off to the service track. On Bush Beast, this is a massive undertaking that must be done by maintenance themselves. On BTMRR, it can be done by the operators in charge of the ride, in a few minutes. I dont think any further discussion on this is warranted. Adam, you and I have thrown arguments back and forth on this subject, with one or the other conceding points here and there. Joz agrees, that the amendments to the manual will not really make much of a difference. Bussy agrees, that he would allow the train to complete its cycle, before removing it from service. I AGREE - that if there were signs of a catastrophic failure, I would not hesitate in E-Stopping the ride, but the point is, there were no signs. the noise was not a sign of a catastrophic failure, only a fault. As we have heard already, a "fault" warning on Demon was something that was regularly ignored by experienced operators, who knew the system to be too frazzled and unreliable to trust. Now that you have the information from the "experts" you asked for, do you now agree?