Tower of Terror and vertical forces - physics debate

[New display name]

18 minutes ago, Gazza said:

Wouldnt the TOT car have put basically neglible loads on the track at that point, since the car is effectively weightless for the entire vertical section. Its not pushing down on the track.

An object can only be weightless if there is no gravity.  The feeling of weightlessness is different to the physics of weightlessness.  TOT is very much loading up the track all the way to the top.

18 minutes ago, Gazza said:

FWIW having sail type letters would be less visible to southbound traffic IMO, since the tower itself is hiding them till the last minute.

Good point.

 

 

 

[Slick]

40 minutes ago, Gazza said:

Wouldnt the TOT car have put basically neglible loads on the track at that point, since the car is effectively weightless for the entire vertical section. Its not pushing down on the track.

In a theoretical vacuum, yes, an item in freefall would not impact a neighbouring object. In reality, a load would be placed on the tower by the carriage wanting to sheer away from the track when the carriage changes from positive acceleration to deceleration. Probably not a lot of load in reality, but worth accounting for at such a height.

The other consideration would be the sheer load for the incline/direction change - you've got roughly 35-45t of energy needing to go somewhere, and the base of the tower would have obviously been engineered for that. Have you ever been on The Giant Drop whilst the pod was racing up the tower? You could feel that mass of energy try to escape through your pores. It was wild.

Having some sort of extension added to the tower would bring new directions of force and resistance all of which would need some solid engineering spec done to it. And the reality is, by putting it to one side you're reducing highway visibility. Occam's razor is probably the way to go.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Slick

[Gazza]

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It's very forceful on the way down..

Only when it hits the curve.

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An object can only be weightless if there is no gravity.  The feeling of weightlessness is different to the physics of weightlessness.  TOT is very much loading up the track all the way to the top.

Only by a small amount.

And think about what you are saying.

When you are at rest your butt is putting your weight x 1g on the seat.

When you are on the curve you are putting your weight X 4.5g on the seat.

When you are on the the vertical you are putting almost no weight on the seat because you are floating out of it.

So therefore it follows.

-When the car is in the station its 10 tonnes on the track (or whatever) 

-When it is on the curve to vertical it is putting 45 tonnes on the track.

-When it is coasting vertically, its putting almost nothing on the track.

 

A really good example of the physics of this in action is on an impulse coaster.

 

Notice how the curve to vertical has quite heavy tube supports and a cluster of track connectors.

This is the highest g load section of the ride, as it swoops under the trains are really pulling down on the track.

But when it gets to the vertical part, there are minimal extra supports. Why?

Because at this point the train is coasting up / falling parallel to the direction of the rails/

its not pushing down on the track, its "rolling with it", so the track is practically self supporting.

And then in the station its lightweight supports again because even though its going at high speed, its still only pulling down 1g

 

Another example would be on dive coasters. The track ties are further apart on the vertical part because the load is minimal, and then get close together again on curve at the bottom when the Gs hit.

Compare the distance between supports normally versus on the vertical part:

But yeah Slick is right, there would be a little bit of force on the car, eg wind blowing it sideways that would try to 'twist' the track, the car being unbalanced and wanting to shear a bit, but not a whole lot.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gazza

[New display name]

@GazzaI know at different points of the track different loads are applied.  Load due to forces at the top of the track is close to zero but you still have the weight of the train to account for.  TOT train weighed 6 tons, that is what weight is been applied to the top of the track.  

 

How forces are applied to vertical track.

Edited March 27, 2023 by New display name

[Gazza]

19 minutes ago, New display name said:

@GazzaI know at different points of the track different loads are applied.  Load due to forces at the top of the track is close to zero but you still have the weight of the train to account for.  TOT train weighed 6 tons, that is what weight is been applied to the top of the track.  

But the weight of an object is just the force acting on the mass of an object due to an acceleration (g force) or gravity.

No gravity or force, no weight.

The mass is constant, the weight of the object isnt.

Think of this way. If the ride isn't running, there's no load on that bit of the track.

If youve got a car coasting  down  the vertical track, there's no meaningful way for that car to put load on the track, it's "falling past it", so its not really putting any major load either. It might as well not be there.

Imagine instead of a coaster it was a filing cabinet and a glass of water.

If you put it on top, the glass is putting full force on the top.

If it slips down the edge, its putting minimal force on the cabinet as it skids down the side.

 

Here's another example.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gazza

[New display name]

Those things are not interchangeable because the coaster is trying to pull away from the track all the way down.

If what I was saying isn't true, why did the TOT car have up-stop wheels?

 

The second the car stops on the track at the top and the car starts going down, it puts the full 6 tons onto the track. 

 I'm not debating the forces doesn't change as it goes down because I already know this.  

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Dean Barnett said:

All this physics chat about shitty lights that will hardly ever be on when the ride it's attached to is open.

Can you go and cry somewhere else.  I'm talking to adults here.

[Gobbledok]

All the chat about theoretical physics is really great but I think anyone only has to remember being on the Giant Drop when Tower of Terror was running to realise it put some pretty large forces into the tower

[REGIE]

Most the strain would be put on the bolts that connect the drop track to the tower while the rest of the strain would be put on the foundations of the tower I believe?

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by REGIE

[New display name]

I don't know why but I think I need to remind you, I know once the car is traveling down the tower it is placing the least amount of force onto the track @Gazza.

The only difference we have is the transitions and directionally change of the car and what load that places onto the track.

To answer your question, you can’t compare a drop ride to a coaster because the wheel assembly tolerances are different because a drop tower doesn’t have directional changes where wheel binding can be an issue.  Different wheel assemblies = different load placement.

 

 

[Gazza]

Yeah I was clearly talking about the vertical section, not the directional change.

 

Clearly when the track curves and peels away from the tower you hit 4.5g, that's why there's a particularly chonky support

 

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I know once the car is traveling down the tower it is placing the least amount of force onto the track

Backpedaling/ contradictory posts:

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The second the car stops on the track at the top and the car starts going down, it puts the full 6 tons onto the track. 

 

[New display name]

10 minutes ago, Gazza said:

Yeah I was clearly talking about the vertical section, not the directional change.

 

Clearly when the track curves and peels away from the tower you hit 4.5g, that's why there's a particularly chonky support

 

 

Clearly putting force on tower.

 

10 minutes ago, Gazza said:

Yeah I was clearly talking about the vertical section, not the directional change.

Clearly when the track curves and peels away from the tower you hit 4.5g, that's why there's a particularly chonky support

 

Backpedaling/ contradictory posts:

 

No backpedalling here.

6t is less than a loaded car.   

A loaded car at station 7.5t

Tower transition 33.t

Clearly 6t < 7.5t

Clearly 6t < 33t

As I said, many times now, I acknowledge less forces are in play on the tower.  

[New display name]

Disclaimer, I'm not sitting here doing the maths so please don't string me up if I'm out by a ton or two.  Also don't string me up if it's tone and not ton.  Or is it tones or tonne?

Edited March 28, 2023 by New display name

[Gazza]

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Clearly putting force on tower.

 

Pretty sure its not vertical at that bit yet.

Which i why I said:

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When the car heads up the incline to vertical, that is what gets the tower shaking. It goes from pushing down through the columns to ground to transferring against the horizontal ones that were braced against the tower as it curves up 

So I maintain what i said earlier that when  the car clears the curve and is running on the purely vertical part, the load on the track and tower is quite low, since the only real forces are the odds and sodds like crosswinds or unbalanced loading.

Its nowhere near 7.5 tonnes, or 6 tonnes, its probably lucky to be half a tonne.