Is it just me or is TOT getting very slow?

[Obstructure]

OK, as this is my first post I don't want to come across as a know it all, but I thought I would clear up a few things brought up in this thread. TOT is becoming "slower" because of power - it has been slow for a long time now, it's just that people don't seem to notice. Breaks on TOT will still work in power failure, but the ride won't operate (take off). I'm sure they use a magnet system because 1. Regular breaks fail, and 2. In a power failure the breaks will still work, very much like the Giant Drop. The tests on TOT are done at the same speed as normal operation, they just don't have the weight to slow it down. The TOT reaching 180km/hr? Very unlikely (but not impossible), a glitch in the computer system wouldn't make a difference because there's only a certain amount of power allocated to the ride. I will just add something about this later on. The TOT seeming to stop and not make it up the Tower and having to be winched back is something that just happens, like anything that is controlled by computers, it does stuff up. This generally happens when the 'magnets' gets too far ahead of the car, hence the car having no pull and decellerating. If Dreamworld operators came out and told you why the ride had broken down, it would go over the public's head. Chances are, the operators themselves don't even know why the ride is broken down, it's not their job to fix the ride, they just operate it. I don't think the GD could drop at 2km per hour and take 5 minutes to reach the ground. If it was stuck half way up or something, it would be released like normal and would break at the bottom as per normal. If the Tower of Terror just stops operating, have a look outside. If it is raining, it won't be operating as it does not operate in wet conditions. After the rain has stopped, the track needs to dry/be dried before they can operate again. Anyway, the TOT could operate to a much higher speed, however in order to operate 'properly' it would blackout the nearby suburb, that is how much power it takes. When it began operation and was going at a much faster speed, there were blackout complaints because the area simply could not cope with the power demands. That is why the TOT is slower then it used to be, not magnets, insurance, etc. Furthermore, I believe (though I am not expert) that the TOT was designed to reach much higher speeds because at the top of the tower, it was supposed to lock in and hold for a few seconds, then release, sending the car back to the bottom, therefore speeds of 180-190km/hr are more along the lines of what the ride is supposed to operate at. The operator doesn't press a button and control how fast the car goes, that is preset. That is why you will always see the car reaching the same height on the Tower each ride. It would only be allocated a certain amount of power each time to make sure it doesn't black out the surrounding suburb, and the park itself. Anyways, just thought I would share some knowledge with you all. Something for you all to think about is, what will happen when Dreamworld gets more rides? They will of course demand more power, so how will the TOT cope? It may eventually slow down to more the speed of the Skylink if they don't upgrade the power facilities. Thanks for your time. Any questions you've got feel free to ask I will try help out.

[Obstructure]

After someone said something about my username I just changed it to something that is hopefully less offensive. Sorry about that. Continue.

[rappa]

Okay where do we start with this one :-) First of all thank you for regurgitating a whole bunch of stuff most of us all either know and/or have posted on this forum in the past. You don't have to worry about looking like a "know it all" because I can assure you that post makes quite the opposite point.

Breaks on TOT will still work in power failure, but the ride won't operate (take off). I'm sure they use a magnet system because 1. Regular breaks fail, and 2. In a power failure the breaks will still work, very much like the Giant Drop.

WOW I just think you may be right and they DO use a magnetic breaking system. Guess that public knowledge that DW even advertise on their site must have been right all these years!

The TOT reaching 180km/hr? Very unlikely (but not impossible), a glitch in the computer system wouldn't make a difference because there's only a certain amount of power allocated to the ride. I will just add something about this later on.

Well yes (although I'll get to your power statement soon) that is why all the published statistics state a max. speed of 160 not 180.

I don't think the GD could drop at 2km per hour and take 5 minutes to reach the ground. If it was stuck half way up or something, it would be released like normal and would break at the bottom as per normal.

Yes it would fall at the same rate of acceleration as usual until it hit the brakes. If however it got stuck in the braking 'zone' then it would be a different matter all together.

Anyway, the TOT could operate to a much higher speed, however in order to operate 'properly' it would blackout the nearby suburb, that is how much power it takes. When it began operation and was going at a much faster speed, there were blackout complaints because the area simply could not cope with the power demands.

Okay that is pretty much complete crap. You cannot simply ramp up the power and get it moving faster. It would not black out a suburb ever because it is running off of DW's isolated mains supply. The cabling used in the system is only rated for a certain level of current. The power supply is breakered (circuit breaker) at this level. If the ride was to attempt to draw more power it would simply trip the breakers. This is done to prevent fire. If you try to draw more power through you wiring the cabling simply heats up beyond its capacity and catches fire. No blackouts, never were, never will be. Urban Legend, yes. Always have been, always will be.

it was supposed to lock in and hold for a few seconds, then release, sending the car back to the bottom

More crap. That is not and was not ever in the design plans, same goes for its sister ride at SFMM. The brakes at the top of the tower are for extreme circumstances where for some reason the car might reach the top of the tower. To prevent incident brakes are installed that will slow and stop the car preventing it from reaching the end of the track. This is the same on all lunched shuttle rides.

The operator doesn't press a button and control how fast the car goes, that is preset. That is why you will always see the car reaching the same height on the Tower each ride. It would only be allocated a certain amount of power each time to make sure it doesn't black out the surrounding suburb, and the park itself.

Of course they don't press a button to control speed. It's all handled by the PLC. Power supplied for launch is the same for every ride, that is why you see the car making up different heights of the tower. To allocate power to each individual launch as you say it would require weighing of the car prior to each launch (ala Dueling Dragons) which TOT does not do. Welcome BTW, some good stuff in your post, good fix on the name old son. :-)

[Gazza]

Something for you all to think about is, what will happen when Dreamworld gets more rides? They will of course demand more power, so how will the TOT cope? It may eventually slow down to more the speed of the Skylink if they don't upgrade the power facilities.

This has got to be one of my weirdest ideas, but what if they mounted a wind generator atop the TOT, it probably wouldnt be the windmill style type like what is at Arrarat, but rather those verticaly mounted ones that looks like an egg beater. Just a thought.

[Obstructure]

"More crap. That is not and was not ever in the design plans, same goes for its sister ride at SFMM. The brakes at the top of the tower are for extreme circumstances where for some reason the car might reach the top of the tower. To prevent incident brakes are installed that will slow and stop the car preventing it from reaching the end of the track. This is the same on all lunched shuttle rides." I suppose you work at Dreamworld then? Seeing you know all of their plans. "Yes it would fall at the same rate of acceleration as usual until it hit the brakes. If however it got stuck in the braking 'zone' then it would be a different matter all together." There is no chance of that happening. The design of the ride and the magnets involved wouldn't allow it to ever get stuck in the breaks. It is a fact that the TOT does not use as much power as it used to which is why it doesn't go up the whole tower. Dreamworld shares its power supply with Coomera, do you think they have their own power station out the back do you? So explain to me then if TOT can only handle so much power, why was it faster then it is now? A good 20-30km/hr faster than it is now to be exact. I suppose you live in Coomera to know there were no blackouts then? First hand experience.

[Obstructure]

Dreamworld is great for schools because it takes students in and lets them learn about the physics behind the rides and some of the operation. Some parts aren't so specific but they do a good job. There are some grey areas I don't understand so maybe I am wrong, but that is what I picked up.

[rappa]

Okay this is weird because I got an email notification of your reply Obstructure but it doesn't show up here. Basically I'm not prepared to continue this conversation any further until you identify yourself because I'm not going to argue with an anonymous poster. What I will say is no I don't work for the park or live in Coomera but if that is your argument then that's pretty juvenile. I know a ****load about electricity and how the power supply grid works because I deal with it every day, do you? Its not just as simple as saying they share their supply with the town. It is distributed to a Main board at DW which is then distributed to sub mains throughout the park, one of which will be TOT. Its done like this so one fault doesn't knock out the whole grid. Surely you don't think plugging in too many toasters at your place will take down the entire suburbs power grid do you? As for GD. Of course there is a chance of that, if the lifting winch mechanism broke down on ascent at that point then the ride would be effectively 'stuck' in the brake zone. Therefore it would not be as simple as letting it go to have it fall straight back to earth at the rate of gravity. Which is what I was saying if you read the post. Have a nice day 'mr X'

[Daniel]

One thinks he/she realised how stupid they sounded and removed it. I read what was said. The post that was there Obstructure, does it mean you work at Dreamworld? Is that what you were getting at having the dig at Rappa?

[Obstructure]

No, don't work at Dreamworld but have learnt about what is involved with the rides. The winch mechanism wouldn't get stuck in the breaks because it is not high enough up. The only way it gets stuck is the wind tangles the two cables taking the drop up to the top. The manual release would just let it drop back into the breaks and decend as per normal. My last post was just asking you if you worked at Dreamworld and knew everything, or whether you lived in Coomera and had first hand experience that there were no blackouts. Really irrelevant information that had nothing to do with the conversation, so I deleted it. The TOT uses up a lot more electricity then a couple of toasters.

[Obstructure]

Ohhhhh ok, so you have to explain yourself before you get credibility? Everyone once was an anonymous poster, or do you forget what that was like? If you are prepared to take no notice, then that is fine, I guess nobody likes to be opposed and it is much easier to just ignore then face that they might be wrong about something.

[rappa]

Urmmm...well yes generally how we humans work is that you do have to earn yourself some credibility. Anyone can just come and start blurting out words, but whether it means anything is a different story. No we were not all once anonymous posters, I have never once posted in any forum under an anonymous name. All my posts contain my signature and my name and my profile says a bit about me. I'm sure everyone here can vouch for me on that. I think it is you that is taking offense to being questioned here not me. Again everyone here will know that I don't bight on arguments and fly off he handle :-) Of course GD could get stuck there, there are many factors that could lead to this. The simplest being the winch motor itself simply 'blowing up' or one of its main components. There will always be unexpected failure, I don't know why you are making such an issue out of it. And you toaster remark clearly illustrates the fact you didn't even read what I wrote. I was using that to explain a point, no TOT is not a toaster but your house is also not DW... Just forget it, clearly your are the supreme master and must have worked at both DW, Intamin and the Electricity board for many many years. You must be tired, how old are you again?

[willsy]

Go for it Obstructure, Say what you think and know!!! Good on you

[Daniel]

Rappa, you're taking over my Nazi status... what's doing? Keep going you two! Obstructure, watch the spelling old son.

[joz]

Yeah man, quite out of character for yourself. I've always thought you were more calm then that Take a deep breath each of you, then get stuck back in, quite good reading in this thread.

[Obstructure]

Putting my name in my profile wouldn't make much of a difference because I am sure you wouldn't know me either. But for your sake, I will put a name in there, just incase you want to look it up in the phone book and give me a call. Of course I've worked for Intamin, Dreamworld and the Electric company, I even designed the TOT and built it all with my own two hands. As for building up credit for myself, well you either believe me or not, just like everyone else on the board. Nothing I say has to be taken seriously, if you think its a load like you do, then thats your problem, not mine, but you won't always be right, sometimes people have to settle for being right 99% of the time. I didn't come here to cause trouble, I came to share my experiences and knowledge with you all. Even if the winch motor for some reason "blew up," it would still be able to release the ride, sending it back into the magnets as per usual. It's no big deal, just educating you. Just to clarify - the TOT has a maximum power usage, of course it does, thanks for outlining that, appreciated, but the amount of power allocated to it has been reduced (obviously) which is the meaning behind it not going as fast as it used to (which is the topic of this thread don't forget). That's why it's not going as high as it used to. Therefore, if Dreamworld wanted to crank the power up and make it go faster, then they could, it just means that they would have higher power bills, and it would effect the power throughout the park, AND the nearby places that run off the same power supply Dreamworld does. Just wanted to ask a question out of curiousity - when was the last time you all had been on the TOT, and what was the speed it said as you left the ride?

[Daniel]

I went on in February and it didn't give a reading for whatever reason. To be honest I couldn't notice a real difference in speed as I've only been on it a few times.

[Richard]

I'd say that on any ride of Tower of Terror, you've only got around a 40% chance of actually getting a speed reading. It's not the most accurate thing anyway - it's got at least a ±10km/hr margin of error on it based on what I've seen it spit out. Now, onto the real stuff. Let's do a bit of physics to work out how much of a saving we're talking if the speed is reduced to the 157km/hr it currently runs at. 161km/hr in 7s leads to an average acceleration of 23km/hr/s or 6.4m/s². Meanwhile running at 157km/hr, the average acceleration is 22.4km/hr/s or 6.2m/s². Assuming the weight of car is 6 tonnes as most publicity material about the ride suggests, this means a force to accelerate the car of 38400N for 161km/hr, and 37400N at 157km/hr. I'll skip ahead a few steps, because it'll just confuse most people. I'm using some magnetic flux equations to determine the amperes required for the launch but because of the unknowns involved I can't get an exact result but rather a relative percentage. It's also worthwhile pointing out that the formulas I am using technically only apply to induction, but are reasonably translatable to the synchronous situation we're dealing with on TOT. In short, a launch at 157km/hr will need around 2.6% less amps than a 161km/hr. Power, watts, are found by Voltage x Amps. Voltage will ALWAYS been a constant in situations like this, so hence it will also cost 2.6% less to operate at 157km/hr. We know also from promotional material that it requires 2.2MW of power for the launch, which means that the 157km/hr launch saves us 57,200W per launch. That's running your toaster for about 23 hours. Not that significant really. It's still costing us 2.14MW to launch the thing. Your annectotal evidence doesn't really go with the numbers I'm seriously doubting that Dreamworld's at all on the same grid as Coomera, or that Tower of Terror has ever been the direct cause of blackouts in Coomera. It is said that TOT launching temporarily doubles Dreamworld's power usage, which means that they're drawing about 4,500,000W of power every 10 seconds - how the hell is 57,200W off this at all going to make even the slightest difference - we're talking around 1% of their total energy!

[Obstructure]

Ok, how about for arguments sake, we decrease the speed to something along the lines of 130km/hr or 140km/hr. How would that effect the usage? When it first opened, it was going right up near the top, much higher then it does now and a mere 4km/hour or thereabouts wouldn't cause it to drop as much as it has.

[Bussy]

First of all I’ll day hi to Obstructure and welcome to the forum.

The winch mechanism wouldn't get stuck in the breaks because it is not high enough up.

Can you clarify this comment please? Are you saying that the winch won't get stuck? Because obviously it can't as the winch is at the top of the tower. As for the ride not being able to get stuck and not be released manually, what about if there is a major physical failure on the ride, I’m talking part of the breaks breaking off and hanging on by a few bolts or a piece of metal and the operator presses the emergency stop. There is absolutely no way that the ride could be manually dropped or lowered in that case. "The Bus is now leaving for Big Stuckup, NSW"

[Richard]

A speed of 130km/hr would take the car roughly 65m up the tower. 140km/hr roughly 75m. That's ignoring air resistance and friction. I don't know about you, but I don't think I see it a whole 45-55m from the top. Meanwhile a speed of 161km/hr takes it 100m up - around 20m from the top and 157km/hr gives us 95m - 25m from the top. That's more realistic. The ride's certainly rarely, if ever running below around 150km/hr.

[rappa]

Hey Joz...you know me, I'm not getting fired up at all, just trying to state fact :-p Just to clarify for EVERYONE on the board, I have no problem with ANYONE posting their ideas/opinions on whatever no matter how wrong or far out they may be. My issue is when people demand that they be taken as true fact and then get all arced up when they are corrected. The GD would not be able to be released in the 'normal' manner and fall at the 'normal' rate because of the effect of the brakes. That's all I'm saying. I don't have any reason to doubt your statement that the amount of power applied at launch has been reduced. All I'm saying is no matter what they crank the power up to it won't effect the rest of the park or Coomera for that matter. Last time I rode TOT was late Feb with Richard and Nev. Don't remember what the reading was and it was that period when it was stuffed anyway. Maybe one of those 2 do remember, but i think it may have been something in the high 150s. The ride was running very fast though, much faster than STE was when I was there this time last year.

[Obstructure]

"All I'm saying is no matter what they crank the power up to it won't effect the rest of the park or Coomera for that matter." That's incorrect. I'm sure someone said earlier that for the time TOT takes off, that the power on the other rides cuts out for that amount of time, or their power is significantly reduced. I think it was Richard? Just wanting to clarify with you Richard, are you basing your equations on the height all the way to the very top of the track? From observation, the TOT is generally reaching the "O" in OF on the pole, and in test runs it goes up to about the "R" in TOWER. Then just throw into the equation that it doesn't go up the tower at point 0m, more then likely about 10m up the pole (which probably doesn't make a huge difference), and some of the climb is up a curve, which is at a certain steepness. I don't know how good at physics you are but doesn't all of this effect the results or have you considered them in working it out? Because you said there was all stuff we wouldn't understand djrappa do you know how the breaks on the GD work? They are of course a magnet system and the way they work means that it would continue to move through the breaks. Just use the example of sticking a magnet to a fridge, it doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you put the magnet on the fridge, it still works at the same rate, and holds the same, going through the same process.

[rappa]

Can't you just put this thing to bed? I really just wanted to say fine just let him have the last word and look like a fool but I'm just not prepared to have wrong information up here. Okay you are arguing with yourself about GD. You are saying that if the thing is released part way up the tower it will still come back down, so am I, no argument there. I am saying that if they had to release the car from the catch car mid way through the brakes it won't fall at the same rate as if released higher up, that's all I'm saying and all I ever said. Why do you keep bringing this up??? The car very well may be held in position by the magnets but that's not my understanding of it and I don't have all the info. on that so I'm not going to make any guesses as I don't know the facts. Now Richard never said there were any blackouts to other rides or power reductions. He said DW's power usage momentarily doubled, which is true. Just because the usage doubled doesn't mean the rest of the park was affected by TOT. Use this as an example. If you have two glasses and a jug of water and one glass is full and the other empty. If you suddenly pour water from the jug into the empty glass the water level of the first glass is obviously unaffected. Same principle applies with DW's power, although they are fed into the place on one set of wires the rest of the park and TOT are still separate systems. That is the facts people, I'm not saying anything more on it so if he wants to continue to waste all of our time on this issue he can do it somewhere else. I'm pretty pissed off that you questioned what Richard was saying. It is obvious he has the knowledge on the subject and you don't so why do you question him?? I find that extremely rude and arrogant, neither very good qualities. I don't know how old you are or what it is you do or where you get your information for that matter. I will say though perhaps if you were willing to listen to what other people say you would find a lot less resistance to what you have to say...

[Obstructure]

I am sure someone posted somewhere that momentarily when the TOT is launched, the power in the park available to other rides is reduced. You seem to think you know a lot, but I'm not sure you really do. I never questioned Richard either, I was just curious if he included those variables. I would not have been able to work that out, I wouldn't know where to start. I didn't question him at all, why don't you put your attitude towards me aside for a minute and just read what was being said. It wasn't said out of rudeness or arrogance, you just see it that way because you've never liked me from the start. So if the power of one ride doesn't effect the rest of the park then please explain to me why the Wipeout never starts when the Reef Diver has started? I've heard them so many times say over the microphone "we just have to wait until the Reef Diver is coming back down before we can start." I guess you will find this one easy seeing you are the electricity guru. How about when you are at Dreamworld next, you ASK someone. I will give you the exact question, so write it down: Q: "Hey I was just wondering what happens to the power on other rides when the TOT operates? Does it effect the power allocated to other rides?" If you get someone who is experienced, and is nice/in a good mood, they will answer the question. But if they don't help you out, feel free to come back here and ask me to give you something concrete you can see that proves that when the TOT launches, that the power on other rides decrease, because I will gladly do that for you. I have been going to Dreamworld pretty much at least a few times a month for the last 5-6 years, whether it be for 1hour or a whole day, and after doing that you start to become curious and observe how things work, and some things you see are more then coincidental things, I assure you. When you are a regular face, they recognise you and will chat to you about all sorts of things there. My age and where I come from doesn't make a difference does it? Or do you take less notice of something someone young says? Because they are young? Just for arguments sake, I will say that I am older then you think I am, because I can tell that from the way you talk down to me, and at times others, that you think they are 'young' and you know more then them. I know a lot more of Dreamworld then you give me credit for, and have seen things and been told things at Dreamworld you could not imagine, so take a step back and be more accepting of others. Anything else Mr Rappa?

[screammachine]

Well when I was a Dreamworld the Guy Operating Wipeout said, that the Gravitron and Wipeout runs on the same power source and therefore they have to wait to each ride to start up first before the other one could go. I could see how these can affect each other though. As for the Tower Of Terror, I dont really care how high up it goes or at what speed it does it! As long as I dont stand in que for too long and get my ride on it. I mean there has to be something better to do than argue about a ride and its speed! Its like little kids sayin my daddies car goes faster than yours do! It doesnt get anywhere! Screammachine Oh yeah; Welcome Obstructure