TOT CONVERSION

[mickey_079]

Ok, I been thinking... the launch on TOT... would would happen if we had a conversion on the motors? Change it to a hydraulic launch. Anyway, I want to do some equations, all I need is the weight of the capsule and torque of the hydraulic motor so I can find the tension in newton meters of the cable. But anyway apart from that do you think it could be done? Would it be a good idea to do it or not? Or is it just down right impossible? I would like to hear your thoughts and gazza... lol would love to see a concept drawing.

Edited March 19, 2007 by mickey_079

[Spotty]

Before you go into engineering, learn how to spell hydraulic The capsule weighs 6 tonnes.

[aidan]

I know you asked for Gazza to draw a picture but this is all I can imagine... Like my details like the dirt around the ToT? lol.

Edited March 19, 2007 by aidan

[mickey_079]

oh now c'mon! thats not very accurate! U CAN'T EVEN SEE THE GIANT DROP STATION ON THERE! I dont even wanna look at this again until you fix that lol

[Gazza]

What do you mean for a concept drawing in this case? Anyway, it would be quite possible, but whether it is worth it is another matter. I have actually thought about them just ripping out the whole track and making it a standard accelerator (the rollback brakes on the launch would be designed to operate on every cycle) but ultimately it comes down to whether it is worth all the extra money when people are happy with the status quo. Also, I think also the rate of acceleration would be more useful than the torque of the motor in this case with regard to the calculations you want to do.

[aidan]

oh now c'mon! thats not very accurate! U CAN'T EVEN SEE THE GIANT DROP STATION ON THERE! I dont even wanna look at this again until you fix that lol

Aww fine don't look at it, lol. I did it in 5 minutes by the way.

[Churros]

That is the greatest concept drawing I have ever seen! It is to scale and everything...lol! With respect to the topic, I don't think the conversion is worth the trouble. The last time they made a change at Dreamworld, it was with the breaking system, etc on Eureka, and now it is cactus. I think if the current launch process becomes ineffective or inefficient energy and cost wise, they should probably look at investing in removing the ride completely, adding a couple more carriages for Giant Drop to improve its capacity and build a proper, full curcuit accelerator coaster as a replacement for the TOT. One that is big and quick and makes the Booster Bikes look like a kid's ride!

[mickey_079]

lol i looked at it... it was all good... apart from no GD STATION! lol yes back to seriousness... im not suggesting or saying they should do, i was merely wondering if it was possible. Pretty much I was bored and I was thinking of random stuff I know the current launch likes to suck up alot of electricity lol... I dont like the idea of ripping TOT down, I think the TOT is what made Dreamworld and is what saved it, and I think it looks great on the skyline to. but aidan... yeah ok I like your picture lol sorry gazza I think you got a bit of competition

[New display name]

Would your idea take away some of the thrill of the T.O.T. I thought when then T.O.T is returning to the station it is getting propelled backwards by the magnets to keep the speed up. If this is so then what is your idea in keeping the speed up on the way back to the station?

[aidan]

There Mickey_079, your wish is my command I also added Big brother. I know its so proffesional but I will answer the question everyone wants to ask. No I dont draw for Dreamworld park maps. lol.

[Gazza]

Would your idea take away some of the thrill of the T.O.T. I thought when then T.O.T is returning to the station it is getting propelled backwards by the magnets to keep the speed up. If this is so then what is your idea in keeping the speed up on the way back to the station?

The brake fins would be calibrated to only knock of speed mostly towards the end.

[Churros]

Yeah, the magnetic brake fins, such as the ones on Supes cannot actually stop the train, they just slow it down. In response to your question then, it is more than likely quite possible to make the alteration, but remaining with the same 'pod' and track might be a little tricky due the the nature of the track, etc. As is, they have created all of their accelerator coasters with a similar track style, catch car, train and brake design which has proven reliable.

[New display name]

I spoke to a maintenance guy one day when the T.O.T was returning to the station slowly who said to me "Each magnet has it's own transformer under it and when one transformer overheats it will trip out that magnet. If the T.O.T. program which is talking to each transformer with questions like are you there, are you working and so on does not get a response because the transformer has shut down the T.O.T program shuts down power to all transformers and resets them.” This happens a lot on hot days. I think the small incline heading towards the station washes a fair bit of speed off while the T.O.T has time to reset itself. I saw the T.O.T trip out as soon as it was shot out of the tunnel once and it did not make it up the curve of the tower. I think the track of the T.O.T. is designed to slow the car down on the return to the station when the transformers are tripped. If my ideas were correct, then this would take away the excitement of doing 160km to the last second because you would be slowing down up the incline while returning to the station instead of getting propelled back.

[mickey_079]

No I dont draw for Dreamworld park maps. lol.

Are you serious aidan! but your illustrations look so much like the maps lol. I didn't expect this thread to get so much attention. If the magnets do propel the ride back to the station... then why do they have the bog pit? I though the magnets slowed the pod down because if i can remember in another thread some said the power went out once and the car went straight through the station and into the bog pit...

[New display name]

When the T.O.T gets up to the programmed run height of the tower the pod would not have a problem getting back to the station. I believe from what I have heard is that the magnets push the pod back towards the station at a set speed before they are used to slow it down. I do not know what the speed is on the return trip but it would be interesting to find out. I have also seen the T.O.T returning to the station after it has been tripped out and not make it back to the station. When this happened the pod started to roll back towards the tower but then the system reset and the magnets slowly propelled it back to the station at about 5km/hr and sent it on its way again. I don't know what they do if when the pod is rolling back towards the tower and it gets further then the magnets go on the track before it resets itself. I don't know how the bog area works but this is my idea why the power shuts down. I believe the bog system would have a max speed that it could stop safely so if there was a problem with a sensor or magnet if would make sense to turn it all of in case it is trying to make the pod go faster then the safety factor of the bog system. I suspect the T.O.T. could go a lot faster then it does go, just like the reliability of running a car at 100km/hr when the car is made to go over 200km/hr. Please tell me if my ideas are heading in the correct direction.

[Churros]

It sounds like a really complicated system. I appreciate the discussion. I just assumed it was launched and then gravity brought it back. But as you say, if it doesn't launch properly it wouldn't generate enough potential energy up the tower.

[mickey_079]

It can go greater than the speed it is currently at. But its too expensive to run the ride at its original launch speed or its a speed greater than.. is it 166km/h ?? Ohh you gotta love roller-coaster technology lol. Oh I know this is off topic, I am doing a research assignment for engineering studies and chose to roller coaster engineering, if anyone has any links for info or anything like that I would love to know. Cheers

[Richard]

I'd recommend starting a new thread in General Thrills if you want any help with info for your assignment. Tower of Terror can most definitely go faster than it currently does, which isn't saying much given how much they've toned down the ride over the years in an effort to reduce wear and thereby cut costs. With organisations like the ACCC and other consumer watchdogs, you have to wonder how they get away with so much promotional material that falsely advertises a ride which will take riders to 160km/hr. Of course, it can also go faster than its advertised speed of 160km/hr. In the interests of longevity and efficiency, the LSM system will have been designed to handle much greater speeds so as to reduce overall stress on the ride. As for converting the ride to a hydraulic system, it'd be a completely pointless retrofit. Very nearly everything but the actual tower would need to be completely replaced. The downward sloping track would cause problems for cable tensioning and car weighing (to determine the required launch force), so the track is gone. Millions worth of electrical, electronics and computer systems need to be replaced. In terms of cost it would be more or less what they paid for the ride originally.

[PattieBoi]

This is the best I could come up with.

[Gazza]

Well, that is pretty much what people had in mind, but Richo hit the nail on the head as to why it would be pointless.

[ads086]

The only reason I can think of to retro-fit Tower of Terror with a Hydraulic Launch would be if Macquarie Leisure Trust were aiming to go Carbon Neutral, and reducing emmissions. Reducing the amount of electrical energy required to launch the car would reduce the amount of energy they are purchasing, thus reducing costs, whilst increasing environmental sustainability

[Richard]

Hydraulic launches are no more efficient than other launch systems. A LSM launch is an incredibly efficient system. They operate at up to 97% efficiency when negating external factors such as air resistance and friction, and are about twice as efficient as a LIM launch. As a pretty crude guess based on some figures from Intamin, a hydraulic launch on Tower of Terror would use nearly twice the power it currently does. The only real difference is that instead of drawing it at once, it is a more gradual process because of how the launch works. Consumption is comsumption though. If Dreamworld did go carbon neutral (try and get that one past the board of directors), the first thing to do would be rip out Tower of Terror and pretend it was never there.

[Gazza]

Hydraulic launches are no more efficient than other launch systems. A LSM launch is an incredibly efficient system.

I found this in an interview with Sandor Kernacs from Intamin AG in Park World magazine:

Three of Intamin’s latest headliners—“Storm Runner, “Top Thrill Drag­ster,” and “Kingda Ka”—all use a hydraulic launch. Experience has taught Intamin this version might be a better option than the LSM and LIM launches because to launch a coaster like “Kingda Ka” with LIMs would take about 25 megawatts of connected power, whereas it can be done with a hydraulic launch for about four megawatts.

[Richard]

Linear induction is a system of propulsion that can reach speeds with unparalleled control - it's used in many industrial settings for this very reason - however it's an inefficient method which isn't well suited to high-speed applications, demonstrated by the whopping 25 megawatt figure for a ride like Kingda Ka. Tower of Terror's original promotional material suggests it uses 2.2MW per launch but I've seen a lot more external sources suggesting it's actually around 1.2MW. I would hit the books and determine the power a LSM system would use to reach the 206km/hr mark, but it's pretty clear that it'll be lower than what Kingda Ka uses. LSM has many setbacks that largely stem from the fact that it draws all its power in one short burst (requiring huge power capacity) and that it requires absolute precision for the launch to go well, with every different component (each individual stator that span the length of the track and the car) constantly communicating with one-another to determine position and speed. By comparison a LIM powered ride faces the same problem with a burst of power, but it'll more or less work every time. The hydraulic system on the other hand has a hydraulic pump which is operating the entire time to "charge" the system for launch but uses no more power than the average roller coaster lift hill motor (around 150,000kW) so it requires no amazing infrastructure (Superman the Escape at SFMM for instance has its own dedicated power line).

[mickey_079]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in TAFE we were talking about hydraulic motors, my teacher said Hydraulic motors are the most efficient of motors and engines out there, with a high amount of torque... he said it all depends on the pump size, number of hydraulics in the system and the load its pushing or pulling. Not sure if he is right or not. I though LIM and LSM were pretty much the same thing?