Best WoZ Coaster

[mba2012]

21 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

[Europa Park video]

They can run Silver Star 100 people per hour above B&M’s rated max capacity. 

Europa Park must be self insured or something. While it's amazing how quick their operations are, they also clearly accept a huge amount more risk than any Australian park can.

Just to highlight a few things:

• No exit gate on Silver Star (and I think some others) means that a guest could just wander into the station at any time. Of course there's station stop buttons and E-stops, but they still rely on operator intervention. In risk management/safety engineering, relying on humans to do anything is basically your last resort. With the pace that operators work at EP, I can't image they're capable of paying much attention to guests entering the station either. I think Movie World goes too far by requiring operators to physically check entry/exit gates that are interlocked with the ride control system, which in some cases can add quite a lot of time to a dispatch. But I think a physical barrier between people and a moving ride is a pretty critical safety feature.
• In several clips you can see operators walking around ride platforms with moving ride vehicles within arms reach. The most competent and well trained operator is still not infallible, and inevitably someone is going to slip, trip, or fall into the path of a ride vehicle and there won't be enough time for another operator to react. Having safe zones (particularly safe zones monitored with pressure mats or similar) for operators means there will be some time spent just moving into the right place to begin loaded the next set of guests, but risk reduction is massive.
• The single handed, quite weak, harness checks on Blue Fire massively speeds up the process, but I'd be almost 100% sure Mack's own ride manuals (which parks are required to follow) specify that restraints must be physically checked more rigorously than that. At DC Rivals it's a two handed push until you're confident that it's firmly pressed against the guests thighs, and then a two handed pull until you're confident it's not going anywhere. My experience on Blue Fire is that the operator grabs the bar on the side of the harness and basically just wiggles it briefly and moves on. I really struggle to see how those checks an operator any confidence that the harness is working as intended.

22 hours ago, Dean Barnett said:

No worse feeling than getting to the end of a really long slow line and having an operator shouting across an empty train instructions that are pretty much common sense. 

This is purely a liability thing. At MW, critical safety information needs to be conveyed to the guests twice before the ride starts, which is why operators reiterate instructions that are already written down. From my experience working there, it doesn't really matter how much something is common sense, a large number of guests won't do/understand it.

9 hours ago, Levithian said:

Im talking more about them doing things that obviously slow up load/unload. Like the example raised earlier about waiting until the whole platform is clear until opening the gates.

Poor performance within those constraints is 100% up to operations. 

For most rides, the only procedural requirement for opening up the gates is that the operators are in the correct positions (typically at the front of the train). On several rides, especially DCR and GL, the unload side operator has to wade through the unloading guests before they can get to their position

[Dean Barnett]

4 minutes ago, mba2012 said:

No exit gate on Silver Star (and I think some others)

Disney have the same - they quiet happily dispatch rides with people on the exit platform. 

 

5 minutes ago, mba2012 said:

I really struggle to see how those checks an operator any confidence that the harness is working as intended.

Universal do the same - no seatbelt and a pull up on the harness - if you can feel resistance its locked. Same with Sea World/Busch parks in USA. Disney do a visual inspection for several smaller rollercoasters.

 

The number one thing that slows down the operations at Village Roadshow parks is the requirement for crew members to put on seatbelts - i've never seen this anywhere else - even RMC's where the seatbelt is quiet important they let you do it and visually see its done up before the shin/lap bars come down.  Also the policy that requires the crew members to walk down the train together with each other.. makes no sense.

I'm not expecting 30 second dispatches from VRP's parks ever - but there has to be a happy medium between safety and abhorrent dispatch times. 

[Levithian]

You could visually sight the restraint is down far enough by literally just looking if it's in contact with a guest, there are few rides I can think of that actually require you to confirm minimum closed. Really, the only concern you should have is if the restraint stays down when in the closed position. You aren't checking any of this to confirm it is locked or latched as once it's no longer in the released state, every position of the restraint cylinder is a closed position and cannot travel the opposite direction. You are checking to make sure it hasn't failed hydraulically and released the cylinders, hence the pull up. The minimum closed part is done and confirmed electronically and won't allow a dispatch until achieved. 

The cylinders cannot function without power and the closed position is effectively the off position preventing the fluid to return to accumulator and the other side of the cylinder. Electrical faults for contactors and relays are monitored for state changes, so if a relay or contact is sticking or has failed, it will flag a fault for the circuit being in the wrong state and you'll see the position on the panel. It doesn't just know what position the restraint is in based on the flag, it also can see what state the circuit is actually in too.  So really, the only way a restraint can release without warning is in the event of a hydraulic failure.

If the hmi tells the seat it's no longer released, the control valve closes, and the restraint cylinder can only be moved in one direction towards fully closed position allowing you to close the gap when loading (the press down), or to account for body mass shift when the ride is in motion. The nitrogen accumulator in the system keeps the fluid pressurised, so once it's in the closed position it should be impossible for it to move towards open until power is cycled. Especially when using two cylinders for redundancy as any one cylinder is designed to be strong enough to keep the harness closed in the event of failure. It's why left and right tests are done during daily inspections because you'd never know one has failed until the second one did too and you had a catastrophic release. 

Newer coasters went further to combine everything with a flagged sensor of some description to provide double redundancy of harness position, usually with an optical or magnetic sensor. So the manufacturers really only want a physical pull against the restraint to confirm nothing weird has gone on.  Additional locking devices like seat belts are a secondary feature and the locked position of the tongue is also monitored in the mechanism itself. So there's not even a reason to worry if the crotch belt is done up, it already knows it is regardless of who fed the tongue into the latch.  

It's like checking your checks have been double checked in the case that a failure of a 2nd or 3rd redundant system has also failed. For most manufacturers they are happy to trust the machine element over the human one. So a physical pull up against the restraint is usually good enough for them to be happy that the guest is more likely to be injured or die of pretty much anything else you can dream up before the ride control system fails. 

Edited Sunday at 06:14 AM by Levithian

[mba2012]

On 15/2/2025 at 1:08 PM, Dean Barnett said:

Disney have the same - they quiet happily dispatch rides with people on the exit platform. 

And the day someone falls in front of a moving ride vehicle, everyone will suddenly find themselves appalled that there wasn't something as simple as an exit gate. Disney must also either be self-insured or be paying huge amounts for insurance, to allow them to skip on pretty inexpensive preventative measures.

On 15/2/2025 at 1:08 PM, Dean Barnett said:

The number one thing that slows down the operations at Village Roadshow parks is the requirement for crew members to put on seatbelts - i've never seen this anywhere else - even RMC's where the seatbelt is quiet important they let you do it and visually see its done up before the shin/lap bars come down.  Also the policy that requires the crew members to walk down the train together with each other.. makes no sense.

I believe it was pretty firmly established in another thread a while back that the requirement for attendants to check the harness before doing up seatbelts on DCR was stipulated by Mack themselves, due to a close-call overseas. Making this a universal policy across the park will actually be saving time in my opinion, because there's one clear rule for guests to follow everywhere. More time is wasted when guests get confused and do the wrong thing and harnesses need to be raised.

1 hour ago, Levithian said:

It's like checking your checks have been double checked in the case that a failure of a 2nd or 3rd redundant system has also failed. For most manufacturers they are happy to trust the machine element over the human one. So a physical pull up against the restraint is usually good enough for them to be happy that the guest is more likely to be injured or die of pretty much anything else you can dream up before the ride control system fails. 

Like I said just above, I'm pretty certain the push-pull is stipulated by the manufacturer. But regardless, on all occasions that I've ridden Blue Fire, it's seemed to me (who spent several years operating a ride with almost the same harness design) that the one handed wiggle of the harness would be wholly ineffective at either checking it's down far enough, or detecting a failed cylinder.

On 15/2/2025 at 1:08 PM, Dean Barnett said:

I'm not expecting 30 second dispatches from VRP's parks ever - but there has to be a happy medium between safety and abhorrent dispatch times. 

I fully agree with you here. @Levithian made this point earlier in the thread, but having previously operated many of the attractions at Movie World, I think the biggest factor in long dispatch times isn't the procedure but the motivation of the staff. 

Procedure certainly contributes to it, particularly at the WoO rides. The attendants have to do a lot of passing through gates and moving around the station to safe zones during each cycle, which definitely chews up time. I think this is more down to the design of the stations (and possibly a lack of input/forethought from operations staff), because these are still critical safety functions.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

On 14/02/2025 at 11:45 PM, Levithian said:

Surely they could develop a rewards system for the crew achieving the most consistent (maybe highest overall daily dispatches?) dispatch times. Likewise, if the procedures arent being followed properly, you going to be penalised so people cant risk safety over winning stupid prises. It means managers would have to be actively watching whats going on every day, which means they probably need a level below park operations management team though as theyve got plenty to do as it is. Maybe something senior ride ops could rotate through, giving them a bit of a bump in pay in the process? Trouble is they have been having real issues retaining these people since covid. 

 

Recognition of good performance is always a good thing but i've always considered a rewards system based on who did the fastest or most dispatches, or had the highest efficiency or whatever encouraged staff to cut corners to achieve better times. 

I'm all for improving the park's operations but it starts with culture, and leading from the top. If everyone expects a higher level of performance, the new guys will be encouraged to aim for the same standard and the tradition continues. 

On 15/02/2025 at 10:08 AM, Dean Barnett said:

The number one thing that slows down the operations at Village Roadshow parks is the requirement for crew members to put on seatbelts - i've never seen this anywhere else - even RMC's where the seatbelt is quiet important they let you do it and visually see its done up before the shin/lap bars come down.  Also the policy that requires the crew members to walk down the train together with each other.. makes no sense.

You mean, except for the other Mack coaster up the road with the exact same seatbelt requirement, and the additional step of an RFID tag to ensure it was the operator who did it up?

Operators go down together so a second person is present to witness the other person do their job. In the case of an incident, there are two people who can attest to the procedure being done correctly prior to dispatch.

16 hours ago, Levithian said:

So there's not even a reason to worry if the crotch belt is done up, it already knows it is regardless of who fed the tongue into the latch.  

It's like checking your checks have been double checked in the case that a failure of a 2nd or 3rd redundant system has also failed. For most manufacturers they are happy to trust the machine element over the human one. So a physical pull up against the restraint is usually good enough for them to be happy that the guest is more likely to be injured or die of pretty much anything else you can dream up before the ride control system fails. 

The belt is done after the push pull to ensure that it is the hydraulic that is holding it down, and not the belt itself. And this is why operators have to do up the belt. 

[Cactus_Matt]

People get injured or die at Disneyland often, they're just big enough of a park/brand/company that it doesn't matter to the everyday park-goer. Lines of sight, indoor stations, snaking queues, a mountain of staff and the allure of getting the most out of your 'Disney Day' means that tragedies don't get the kind of word-of-mouth negativity compared to what happens at other parks. Also, let's be real Disneyland could pay off every news station and bury (no pun-intended) any death that occurs at their park plus it'd pale in comparison to whatever mass-shooting was actually the top story that day. Our parks and our country are continuously running on that 'slow news day' energy, that even mentioning Dream World for something unrelated like a new ride will give the newsroom a chance to dredge up that "it's been 1567 days since the Thunder River Rapids disaster".

 

Long story short, Austrralia is different to Europe, Australia is different to America, we kinda suck in many ways, and lack-luster (borderline abysmal) theme park ride operations will now always be one of those things that we'll have to live with. In my waking dreams I hear the enigmatic chants of "Eight to a row or the boat won't go" as we used to funnel into the continuously moving station of the Loony Tunes River Ride... maybe one day we'll get back to that, but I doubt it.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

4 hours ago, Cactus_Matt said:

"Eight to a row or the boat won't go"

Are you sure it's 8? Bermuda and Pirates OTC are both about 4 to a row. An 8 seater boat feels massive... Finding imagery of LTRR to confirm is a bit difficult (i'm sure its out there but it wasn't easy on a quick google).

ETA: turns out I was right - it's "4 to a row or your boat won't go" 6:35 in this clip. Looks like your trauma is slowly fading @Cactus_Matt

 

[Spotty]

On 18/2/2025 at 8:50 AM, DaptoFunlandGuy said:

Are you sure it's 8? Bermuda and Pirates OTC are both about 4 to a row. An 8 seater boat feels massive... Finding imagery of LTRR to confirm is a bit difficult (i'm sure its out there but it wasn't easy on a quick google).

ETA: turns out I was right - it's "4 to a row or your boat won't go" 6:35 in this clip. Looks like your trauma is slowly fading @Cactus_Matt

 

Snowy River Sam here, please keep moving all the way down. Remember 4 to a row, or the boat don't go!