Blackfish

[Brad2912]

Now you are calling me ignorant and abusing me?

You start off by blaming Australians and referring to them killing off species, and then say it's only supporters of non-Australian sea-worlds you are targeting. What is your thoughts on tiger island?

The ignorant person is you. Agenda driven, swayed by media and smear campaigns and propaganda.

As for giving back to society or paying it forward, you know Jack all about what I have or haven't done in my life, which i'd comfortably say is a hell of a lot more than what you and the majority of the higher than mighty conservation crew do

Edited December 26, 2014 by Brad2912

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Welcome to Parkz Terri, and thanks for dredging up a long since finalised discussion. I can only assume, since your 'greed moral' comments come directly after a quoted post of mine that you are directing your acid tongue in my direction.

In the further post of mine that you quoted in ad nauseam, you would have read a very objective opinion of my take on the film. I don't support the captivity of Orca, but i'm a realist when I say that the whales in captivity cannot possibly be released into the wild at this stage, both for their health, and also the popularity of the parks that house them. With a view to the future, the parks could slowly phase things out and replace them with other attractions. Our gold coast park is proof that a Sea World can survive without them, but given the long-standing tradition of Orcas within the USA parks, if they were suddenly to lose them rather than some sort of 'staggered withdrawal' the park would not recover.

The health argument goes hand in hand with the financial viability issue, and as I've explained several times in this thread - it isn't viable to release these animals fpr their own health and safety. The breeding program isn't just a money spinner either - again as i've mentioned already - because these animals are pod animals and yearn for company of their own kind... very similar to elephants in circuses (note: i'm not condoning that either) where the circus has been prevented from acquiring more elephants, once the second last one dies, the last one generally doesn't survive.

I think it's wonderful you have names to drop. Trevor is a nice guy and very passionate about the rescue and rehabilitation of sea life. He wouldn't have the job title he does if he wasn't (nor would he hold the many positions on trusts and boards that he does). You should bear in mind that there are several people on this site that are closely associated with Village Roadshow, and many park employees (and higher-ups) do pay attention to what goes on here.

Although I don't drop names, I have made it plain in the past that I am also acquainted with a member of the Sea World team that works closely with Trevor, and the animals within the park. I'm not ignorant to what goes on behind the scenes, and I can assure you that i'm not one to sit there and selfishly demand an animal perform for my own amusement, nor would I consider myself 'self centered' because of the views I hold.

Note that since 1973, Trevor has been instrumental in the acquisition of most of Sea World's animals, and whilst the park today is all about spreading the conservation message, it wasn't always that way. The USA parks can change, but it has to be a gradual change both for the health of the animals, and the financial viability of the parks to continue their own marine rescue efforts.

If you've got a flag to wave and a message to put across, you're welcome to do so. If you're going to blindly follow a "crock-umentary" that is clearly biased, one sided and deliberately inflammatory whilst remaining ignorant to key facts easily obtained online (as detailed in the post of mine that you quoted) then there will be no reasoning with you and you may as well just leave. I'm quite happy to have a civil discussion about the merits or otherwise of the points made in this film - but there is no need for name calling and slanderous behavior simply because you disagree with someone else's point of view.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Ok - this came through whilst writing my last post so I want to take you to task on a few things...

I love Sea World Australia, they do some unbelievable things for Maine Wildlife. The same can NOT be said for the thirteen other Marine Parks in the world who’s ONLY priority is money.

Yes I am saying that anyone that supports Sea World USA or any of the 13 Marine Parks around the world are ignorant, selfish & self centred. Are you aware that Sea World in USA now drill out Orcas death so they can’t bite trainers. No anaesthetic, no pain relief ect.

But then with people like you who live their lives either being ignorant or immoral. It is OK to go & have fun enjoy a show where wild animals suffer cruelty.

• At least 134 orcas have been taken into captivity from the wild since 1961. One hundred and six (79%) are now dead. (An additional male escaped after 2.25 years in captivity. His fate is unknown.)

• Of the 107 which died, average length of survival in captivity was under six years (range: 1 day - 27.2 years).

• Most captives die before they reach their early 20s, yet in the wild, females may live as long as 80 years or more.

• As of August 2000, a total of 49 orcas (26 wild-caught and 23 captive-born calves) are held in 13 marine parks in five countries.1 There is also a male
  orca, Keiko, now in a seapen in his native Icelandic waters, as the second stage of a rehabilitation and release programme.

• Of 59 known pregnancies in captivity since 1968, only 23 calves (38%) have survived.

• Sea World owns 22 orcas, 44% of the world-wide captive total. Around 10 million people visit Sea World parks annually. Sea World has itself estimated that as much as 70% of its income derives from visitors attracted by the orca shows.2

What you aren’t prepared to educate your self so you can continue to be ignorant? People like should “Pay if Forward”. Give back to society, the planet what ever. Volunteer at a Marine Park and actual do some good.

So firstly as to your statement that unlike Sea World Australia - the other parks only priority is money. So explain to me what things like the Sea World and Busch Gardens Conservation Fund ( http://swbg-conservationfund.org/ ) is about? What about seaworldcares.org? Or the Virgin Pledge?

As to the dental claims - you state this is to prevent the whales from biting trainers. I call bullshit. Firstly - the jaw of an orca is more than capable of grabbing and holding a trainer by sheer force with or without teeth. Most articles discussing the drilling of the teeth isn't to remove teeth, but rather to perform a 'pulpotamy' which is drilling a hole in the tooth. This is done to relieve pressure tooth aches, which are caused (based on the book that was published making the claims in the first place) by the whales using aggression displays or dominance displays to challenge or dominate other whales by biting metal pen-gates or the corners of performance stages and platforms. The drill is similar to a dental apparatus, and according to the first 5-6 pages on google (which are in themselves slamming the practice) are done for dental reasons as many as three times a day, to prevent infection caused by rotting fish remaining in the cavity.

As for the 'facts' behind your study:

1. The mortality figures span more than 50 years. Without factoring in the ages of the orcas at the time of capture, it is impossible for this to be considered an accurate statistic. As stated in on of my previous posts - females AVERAGE 50 years in the wild, and males even less so - so clearly, when you're looking at figures over more than 50 years, many of them are going to die.
2. The average lifespan in captivity can also be skewed. the early years where studies on captive whales didn't yet understand many of the needs of an orca, there is going to be more deaths earlier on and less deaths later. Further - there is no information on whether the captives were housed in a pod, or kept alone (as stated previously - elephants do not usually survive on their own either)
3. "Most Captives" - do you refer only to those that are wild caught, or are you including captive born? Females CAN live until 80... but the accepted average is closer to 50. The human life expectancy is 67.2 in 2010, whereas Japan's life expectancy is around 83, whilst the oldest verified human lived to 122 years of age in France. Orca mortality in the wild is also affected by predation - they may be a top predator, but the young are still weak and can suffer the same fate.
4. Your stats are clearly outdated, as Keiko died in 2003, whilst trying to be released back into the wild. They also don't agree with your first 'fact' that states at least 134 orca were captured since 1961, with 106 now deceased, yet only 26 captive survive today - 106 + 26 = 132 so there are two missing from that fact, calling one or the other into question.

The birth mortality rates are out of date also, but given the other info, i'll accept that the figures are old. Currently (according to orcapod.wikia) the stats are as follows:

Information current as of December 6, 2014.

It is important to note that little is known about orca pregnancies in the wild. The exact date of birth is unknown for almost all orcas born in the wild, though few have an approximation because their mothers had not been seen with a calf and then soon after have a calf. Another way to know is if the calf still has fetal folds from labor. It is impossible to know the statistics on miscarriages, stillbirths, and calves who die soon after birth and are never seen. Also, many killer whale pods still have little to no research done on their pod.

There have been 96 known pregnancies in captivity from 1968-Present. Of those 96:

• 35 are alive.
• There have been 50 successful births.
• 1 calf is under the age of 1 and will not be included as successful until age 1.
• There have been 45 unsuccessful births.

There have been 50 successful births.

So the success rate currently stands at over 50%. Given that your stats are at least 10 years old (my info was found in a google search taking only a few seconds), clearly - the breeding programs have come leaps and bounds in the last 10 years. It is also clear that whilst these "Statistics" don't sound great, the same info source clearly points out that there are no wild figures to compare them to, and for all we know - the same statistics could be present in the wild.

Lastly you point to the Orca being responsible for 70% of the USA parks income, and given that they are the star attraction, that is to be expected. You could take away the orca, refocus the park to dolphins as the GC park is, and then point to a similar figure being the responsibility of the dolphin. Our Sea World uses the Dolphin as it's logo - the USA parks use the Orca. The same way that Disney uses the Mouse... you don't run with an Otter to market a marine park... it's just common sense.

You point at Brad as being ignorant without any knowledge of his background. You suggest people "aren't doing some good" if they don't volunteer at a marine park. Given we only have Sea World - i think they'd have to get to a point where they said "no more volunteers please, we're full" - so those turned away would be ignorant too?

I think you are the one that needs to educate yourself. You've gotten yourself a soapbox based on the fact that YOU volunteer to help marine wildlife, so YOU must know more than others. You're relying on media articles that cannot be said to be accurate (we've seen only recently that information from media is often sensationalised and frequently wrong - just look at media associated with the Martin Place Siege in Sydney). Blackfish isn't fact. It's opinion.

You are entitled to have one also.

But it doesn't make you 'morally' right - and it certainly doesn't give you the right to tread on anyone else's - especially when you yourself are ignorant of important facts that either contradict or flat out disprove your claim.

[BigKev]

I'm not comfortable with Orcas, largely because I think their sheer size means it is almost impossible for a park to provide them with adequate space in which to live.

The dolphins I am much more comfortable with and I think they also provide a powerful service to the environment. I know my children came away from the show with a dedication to marine conservation that has well and truly stuck with them, and they influence many people with their values.

The same thing happened when they saw the elephant show in Bali zoo, after which they discovered the evils of palm oil use and have single handedly eliminated it from our and many friends and relatives homes.

Provided animals are well cared for and seemingly content I have no problem with some living in captivity.

[rappa]

Yeah I think this new member needs to go. Their attitude is just not what we want here. This is a forum for discussion, not for talking 'at' people.

[iwerks]

Trevor Long answers the critics.

The truth about Sea World: Gold Coast theme park reveals all and answers critics

• Tanya Westthorp
• Gold Coast Bulletin
• January 10, 2015 12:00AM

SEA World has hit back at accusations it operates an “aquaprison” in a revealing insight into what really happens at the Gold Coast theme park.

The international tourist attraction has come under unprecedented criticism for keeping dolphins, seals, sharks and polar bears since the documentary Blackfish shone a heartbreaking light on captive killer whales at SeaWorld Orlando in the US.

Henry the polar bear hams it up at Sea World on the Gold Coast. Pics Tim Marsden

A Shut Down Sea World petition attracting 15,000 signatures and social media outcry this week involving singer Sam Smith have brought the issue closer to home.

So what really happens at Sea World on the Gold Coast? Are dolphins starved if they refuse to perform tricks for audiences? Do the polar bears swelter in the subtropical heat?

Does Sea World buy healthy wild dolphins that are rounded up and ripped from their families? And do animals languish in back pools just like SeaWorld Orlando’s Orca Tilikum, featured in Blackfish?

In answering the critics, Sea World Gold Coast marine sciences director Trevor Long tells Tanya Westthorp the truth about life at the theme park.

US CONNECTION:

There’s a common misconception that Sea World Gold Coast is associated with the US-based theme parks that have come under fire over the conditions it holds its captive killer whales.

Sea World Gold Coast has been tarred with the same brush by people who think the parks are part of a worldwide franchise.

Not true, says Mr Long. They are two separate companies and have nothing to do with each other.

Sea World director of Marine Sciences Trevor Long, with Squeak the dolphin, says there should be no comparison between the US and Australian theme parks because they are separate companies with different animal welfare standards. Pic:Tim Marsden

The only link is that Sea World Gold Coast founder Keith Williams “stole the name Sea World in 1973 because it wasn’t registered in Australia”.

The Australian Sea World is spelt as two words, whereas it is one word in the US.

Killer whale Tilikum at SeaWorld in Orlando was the focus of documentary Blackfish, which shed light on his sad plight in captivity. (AP Photo/Phelan M. Ebenhack)

RESCUE OF MARINE LIFE:

Sea World has long been accused of only rescuing marine life so they can take them into captivity.

“That is the greatest load of rubbish,” says Mr Long who admits to getting “cranky” at the misinformation.

The reality is most animals are released once rehabilitated and the only time Sea World keeps a rescued animal is when it is permanently disabled or too young to survive in the wild.

“Our primary goal is to get animals released back into the wild,” says Mr Long, adding that hundreds of animals have been released, including most dolphins that are rescued.

Sea World trainers spent three days rescuing a beached whale at Palm Beach last year.

Mr Long said the public now expected Sea World to rescue stricken animals, and they do so happily because they have the expertise, logistics and moral obligation.

“I get calls 24/7 and I have done for 40 years. You ring a government agency after 4.30pm and say there is a stranded animal. We are the only ones who will go out,” he says.

One of the heartbreaking attempts to free the stricken whale during the marathon rescue. This is the moment a tow rope snaps. The whale was eventually freed. Picture: Glenn Hampson

So why does a company spend millions rescuing animals that will not benefit them financially?

“I believe we have an ethic and moral obligation, if we are going to have these animals in these environments and we have the expertise. That’s why we do it.”

Even Nari the dolphin, who suffered a shocking shark bite and barely survived, was eventually released back into the wild.

Injured Tangalooma dolphin "Nari" spent months at Sea World recovering after a horrendous shark bite. She was eventually released.

WHAT HAPPENS TO DOLPHINS THAT REFUSE TO PERFORM?

Most of the dolphins at Sea World do not perform in shows, but they are not left languishing in back pools like many critics would have you believe, says Mr Long.

Only a small proportion of dolphins, usually the young and energetic, perform in the theme park shows and they receive some, but not all, of their daily meal during the shows.

Mr Long says it is untrue that dolphins are starved if they refuse to perform and babies are not ripped from their mothers and forced into shows.

“We can’t make animals perform. If an animal doesn’t want to perform, it won’t perform and it happens.

“If we don’t feed these animals they are going to die.

“The animals don’t perform for food, they perform for interaction. It is no different to a dog that wants to please its owner.

“We have babies that perform with mum. It will go out there and mimic what mum does. You’ve got to remember we are not asking them to do anything they wouldn’t do in the wild. They are just jumping and swimming fast.”

Sea World Gold Coast resident Squeak hams it up for the camera. Pics Tim Marsden

As for the non-performing animals?

They live in family groups in sandy-bottomed lagoons accessible to the public. They are fed every day and trainers spend a lot of their time simply playing with them to give them vital enrichment, he says.

ARE THE ANIMALS HAPPY?

“People say ‘how do you know your animals are happy?’. I’ve got pets because I love animals and I know I can go home every night and I’ll know from the demeanour of that animal that it’s happy,” says Mr Long.

“It is no different with animals at Sea World.”

He said Sea World residents went through the same emotions and ups and downs as humans, so animals could, at times, get depressed when they were sick or facing social pressures within their group hierarchy.

But, he says, trainers who have a strong bond built on trust, ensured those issues were addressed.

Mr Long says Sea World’s extensive, filtered, sandy-bottomed lagoons are enriching for it’s dolphins. Pics Tim Marsden

“I am certain there are points of time when the animals are not in the best state of mind, like I would go through every week in this office. But we are fortunate that trainers are so intuitive that they are able to find ways to understand that situation and provide methods that is going to help that animal.”

BLACKFISH:

Blackfish created waves worldwide by focusing on the captive life of Tilikum, a SeaWorld Orlando killer whale involved in the deaths of three people, and the consequences of keeping orcas in captivity.

The 2013 documentary covered the 1983 capture of Tilikum off the coast of Iceland, the bullying he faced by fellow captive killer whales at Sealand of the Pacific, the rise of his aggression when moved to SeaWorld and the whistleblowing of former SeaWorld trainers who witnessed Tilikum’s depressed state.

A still from a video by Todd Connell shows trainer Dawn Brancheau and Tilikum at SeaWorld in Orlando before he pulled her under the water and thrashed her around, killing her.

Mr Long has watched Blackfish five times and says he does not like to see killer whales in concrete tanks.

“I don’t believe there has been an environment built that can support killer whales,” he says about the US SeaWorld “Shamu” killer whale exhibit.

“I don’t like concrete pool environments. I think it is very hard for those animals to be enriched.”

Sea World Gold Coast has some of the world’s biggest sandy-bottom dolphin lagoons and Mr Long says “we would never allow” an animal to languish like Tilikum in Blackfish.

While Blackfish has caused Sea World Gold Coast plenty of PR headaches, Mr Long says anything that prompts an improvement in animal welfare standards was “a good thing”.

Sea World Gold Coast polar bear Henry plays with Christmas presents - part of vital enrichment for the animals. Pic: Adam Head.

ANIMALS IN CAPTIVITY:

Mr Long says he doesn’t “have a problem with animals in captivity” because he sees the carnage and brutality wild marine life faced at the hands of humans and other animals.

“Humans are basically a bad lot. I see it when they speed through and we have to rescue the turtles and the dugongs that have been hit by a boat.”

Life in the animal kingdom is also brutal and often deadly.

“People also have this mystic sense about dolphins that they are some pure being but in the wild males will take a female away and rape it and rape it and rape it,” he said.

“In the wild a group of males may take a female and do what they want with it, even to the point that it dies, but we are able to manage that situation in our environments.”

Wendell the sea lion at Sea World on the Gold Coast mucks around with Clyde the Glasgow Commonwealth Games mascot. Pic: Jerad Williams.

He says Sea World Gold Coast would never compromise the welfare of animals and would only create exhibits if they were “best practice” and enriching in a physical and psychological sense.

“If people thought we ill-treated our animals that would be out on the street. How could you run a park if you were going to be cruel to animals?

“I invite people to come out and see what we do here.

“Yes, the company makes money out of it, but it puts an enormous amount of money into rescues.”

TAIJI DOLPHIN DRIVE AND HUNT:

Sea World has joined zoological petitions lodged with the Japanese Government opposing Taiji and would never buy healthy dolphins that have been plucked from the wild — anywhere in the world.

Mr Long says Sea World used to buy healthy wild dolphins but handed back its permit more than 20 years ago and could not import animals from overseas.

“A Taiji animal could never come to Australia. There is no import or export of cetacea in and out of Australia,” he says.

The shocking blood-filled lagoon in Taiji, Japan shows fishermen with a boat filled with freshly caught dolphins. Sea World has joined zoological societies in urging for an end to the brutality. Photo: Brooke McDonald

DO POLAR BEARS SUFFER IN SUB-TROPICAL HEAT?

Mr Long says the state-of-the-art Polar Bear Shores exhibit at Sea World created an “Arctic Summer”. It has chilled water and cold dens and the bears can go off-exhibit whenever they want.

“That can be an issue for our guests. They ask “where are the polar bears?”, but it allows animals to have choice. We do not lock animals on exhibit.”

Twins Hudson and Nelson were rescued as cubs when their mum was euthanased in the wild because she posed a danger to a Canadian town.

Sea World’s polar bear cub Henry plays in his exhibit. Pic: Adam Head

Liya, the mum of cub Henry, was born in captivity and came from St Petersburg Zoo.

At times Hudson has felt the rejection blues because Liya has chosen his twin brother to be her mate, but trainers were working to pick his spirits up.

CAN THE ANIMALS RETURN TO THE WILD?

Mr Long says captive animals can never be returned to the wild because they don’t understand how to hunt or the danger of shark nets and boats.

It was vital the captive animals were used to spread the conservation message because “at the moment, people abuse the environment”.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/the-truth-about-sea-world-gold-coast-theme-park-reveals-all-and-answers-critics/story-fnj90t7b-1227179971254

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

I'd like to shake the hand of the journalist writing that for actually getting much of it right, and not skewing anything. It's a perfect representation of what our park is.

[Zanstabar]

It's wonderful to finally see someone not going "SEA WORLD IS ALL OF THE BADS. SEA WORLD IS LITERALLY HITLER".

[rappa]

It's a very honest answer. Don't pretend they never took animals etc, the past is the past and it's a great representation of what the park does and is today.

[Slick]

The "anti-Tiger Island/Sea World/Australia Zoo/Zoos in general" club really irk me and shows just how powerful a film can be, irrespective of how misleading it is. Moreso, it's actually quite scary to think how many people these days will happily take everything they see and read as fact and don't do their own research. We're stuck in a world where people have the entirety of human history & knowledge in our pockets but instead choose to use our smartphones to look at cute cat pictures.

[Jakev8]

Big thumbs up to the journalists who wrote that. Think this artical needs to be shown around the globe and to let the rest of the world know that cause we carry the "Sea world" name dos't mean we act like and have anything to do with the "Seaworld" parks over in the states✌️?????

Edited January 12, 2015 by Jakev8

[Theme Park Girl]

I have to admit, I have wondered if the recent name change of Dolphin Cove to Dolphin Beach at our Sea World is to disassociate the park in any way to this controversial "Cove" doco that has been giving marine parks a bad rap?

And yeah, as a recent seasonal employee of the park, I know all this automatic association to the US Seaworld has been hurting them. Not only is their FB page clearly covered with dozens of slanderous comments & reviews related to blackfish, but I came out to animal welfare activism flyers on my (and everyone else's) car in the SW car park one afternoon after work.

They didn't have a very busy Xmas period either, compared to previous years. Attendance numbers were generally lower, the days and days of rain certainly didn't help either.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

That's a very interesting theory OceanGirl... there may be some merit to that...

[MaxxTheMonster]

One side of the story being reported today...

https://www.thedodo.com/project-blue-world-seaworld-breeding-1396292502.html?utm_source=BfishFB2

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

I picked up a couple of articles breaking this morning with announcements from SeaWorld Parks US that they would discontinue their orca breeding program, and cease 'entertainment' style shows, in favour of more 'conservation & education' shows.

Unfortunately I caught the articles on mobile so I can't share them (if anyone picks them up on PC please feel free to share the links).

Also - regarding @Wyncenuros' post above - the blue world proposal is not going ahead. One of the stipulations made by the approving body required them to end their breeding program to receive approval.

This in itself is ridiculous - the blue world proposal would have cost $100 million. The cost (like with most construction) would probably have cost more than that when finished. For the park to build a $100 million dollar facility, for animals that will no longer breed, means the facility would be useless within the lifespan of their current animals.

Onto the other statements - SeaWorld announced that the 'shows' would change within 3 years. I am saddened to hear this as my Son will never get to see these beautiful animals the way that I have seen them. The 'conservation' suggestion is an interesting one, and one I hope SeaWorld can do well in order to keep the crowds coming.

If Sea World GC's Dolphin show is what they mean when they refer to a 'conservation' style presentation, i'm all for it - natural swimming behaviours without 'beaching' tricks would still be just fine for me.

As for ending the breeding program - I've commented on this previously. The animals are a social pod animal. I'm disappointed that this signals the end of Orca at SeaWorld eventually, but agree it is the right thing to do - the problem here is that the pod will eventually die out, and the last surviving animals will lead a very lonely existence.

This however is probably still many years off given the life expectancy of Orca.

Regardless - anything SeaWorld does short of releasing these animals into the wild will meet criticism by animal rights groups - although some are quietly celebrating this victory.

Now, instead of constructing the biggest simulated natural habitat ever, the remaining Orca are destined to live out their lives in the so-called "cruel concrete pools".

The other day, a post went viral on facebook sharing a person's own views on Blackfish, debunking the myths and presenting some really good arguments. I can't find it now but that also would be worth a post.

I hope that I am able to one day take my son to see an Orca up close before they are all lost, and whilst my comments here today have been riddled with the disappointment I have - I know that this is ultimately the right thing to do. I just hope the animals still held by SeaWorld do not suffer as their pod dwindles, and I look forward to seeing how SeaWorld reinvents itself without the Orcas as their mainstay. Here's hoping the dolphin show gets a facelift!