Scooby-Doo Spooky Coaster fire and lighting effects

[lfrit4]

Anything bright you shouldn't look directly into, a little common sense! The lights in there project random patterns, that's what you should be looking at! I'm glad they finally updated the lasers and I'm guessing no fog machine in there at the moment could be because they could be using it for fright night or installing a new one

[Brad2912]

A kid?? The target audience?

[westical]

who would be stupid enough to look directly into a laser anyway

When it's pointed at you on a rollercoaster?

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Wait wait wait... back up -

Ifrit - do you seriously and honestly believe that they would take the few hazers they have in the scooby disco room out, thereby ruining one of it's better effects, so that they can fog up the park for Hallowe'en?

1. They won't be needing to do that for almost 4 weeks... why remove them now?
2. The smoke produced in the scooby disco room is thin and hazy across the entire room
3. the smoke produced outdoors (where it has to contend with wind) is thick, dense and is released often, and with a lot of noise
4. The few inside Scooby wouldn't be sufficient (firstly as they're probably the wrong type), to smoke up the entire park... so why go to the effort of removing equipment in a permanent installation, when you're still going to need to hire in more of them anyway?

I don't believe tech services would cannibalise effects on permanent attractions for a month long series of night events (unless it was a last-minute replacement to ensure the show went on for that night before fixing the issue properly the next day).

[Sam Cash]

They had a hazer in there today. For those who don't know haz is much thinner but still gives cool beam effect like fog. Much harder to trip fire alarm with it too. You probably wouldn't even realize its there when ur on the ride unlike fog.

[Tim Dasco]

Fog machines do set of alarms a lot due to the heat. Most of the smoke machines used are are used by heating a substance. The Fog machines that don't set of alarms are Ice ones. This is due to the fact that some smoke alarms use heat scenes. I have used both and the smoke alarm always goes of with the Heat Fog machine and the Ice one don't. Its good to see Movie World trying to avoid this problem by going with Hazers instead.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Tim Dasco

[rappa]

Wow that is the worst write up of fog machines setting off fire alarms I've ever heard of, especially from someone saying "trust me I'm in the industry".

Ok any particle based atmospheric effect (fog, haze, smoke, low fog, whateveryouwanttocallit) WILL set off particle/optical smoke detectors.

The reason dry ice effects 'likely' won't is they don't reach high enough for the detectors to see the particles. Same goes for cooled low fog, which uses a fluid that evaporates before it rises to height.

It has NOTHING to do with if a machine uses heat to make the fog.

And most 'haze' if people are talking about "Water based" (which is made from glycol and NOT water) us just a small amount of fog passed through a fan.

There are machines that use a fine oil based fluid to create true haze but that are about 6 times the price of the cheaper glycol based systems.

Please don't come on the boards trying to act all expert like when you don't know what you're talking about because rest assured there are members here who are experts in various fields and will expose you every time.

[Tim Dasco]

Wow that is the worst write up of fog machines setting off fire alarms I've ever heard of, especially from someone saying "trust me I'm in the industry".

Ok any particle based atmospheric effect (fog, haze, smoke, low fog, whateveryouwanttocallit) WILL set off particle/optical smoke detectors.

The reason dry ice effects 'likely' won't is they don't reach high enough for the detectors to see the particles. Same goes for cooled low fog, which uses a fluid that evaporates before it rises to height.

It has NOTHING to do with if a machine uses heat to make the fog.

And most 'haze' if people are talking about "Water based" (which is made from glycol and NOT water) us just a small amount of fog passed through a fan.

There are machines that use a fine oil based fluid to create true haze but that are about 6 times the price of the cheaper glycol based systems.

Please don't come on the boards trying to act all expert like when you don't know what you're talking about because rest assured there are members here who are experts in various fields and will expose you every time.

Yeah sorry i was wrong.

[Sam Cash]

My understanding is its harder to set off smoke alarms due to the denseness of the haze. I have seen most mobile DJ now have hazer so they can use atmospheric for their gig in hotels/ where they can't isolate fire alarms.

[rappa]

That's a very risky and stupid game.

There is every possibility haze will set of an optical detector and then you have the big red truck show up, a ruined party, an angry venue and probably a fine.

Smoke detectors are there to detect anything in the air, even dust can set them off.

Proceed with caution.

[ShakeShack]

Being a Mobile DJ doesn't really count as being in the AV Industry. Anyway I rode Scooby a couple of times yesterday with no issues with them "hurting my eyes" the were as bright as any normal LED fixture including the ones used on Movie Worlds normal rig and I have never herd anyone complain about the lights at Fright Night, White Christmas or Carnivale hurting there eyes. The was minimal haze in one spot of the ride but there was no where near enough to set off any of the alarms in the building. The lasers are currently Multi coloured with a few Gobo's (Shapes) on them. There are four in total although I have herd that they are planning on installing more in the future. The LED strips are all back and some have been replaced.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Luke Beazley

[Sam Cash]

The lasers are currently Multi coloured with a few Gobo's (Shapes) on them.

Lasers don't have gobos

Edited September 8, 2014 by Sam Cash

[lfrit4]

Wait wait wait... back up -

Ifrit - do you seriously and honestly believe that they would take the few hazers they have in the scooby disco room out, thereby ruining one of it's better effects, so that they can fog up the park for Hallowe'en?

• They won't be needing to do that for almost 4 weeks... why remove them now?
• The smoke produced in the scooby disco room is thin and hazy across the entire room
• the smoke produced outdoors (where it has to contend with wind) is thick, dense and is released often, and with a lot of noise
• The few inside Scooby wouldn't be sufficient (firstly as they're probably the wrong type), to smoke up the entire park... so why go to the effort of removing equipment in a permanent installation, when you're still going to need to hire in more of them anyway?

I don't believe tech services would cannibalise effects on permanent attractions for a month long series of night events (unless it was a last-minute replacement to ensure the show went on for that night before fixing the issue properly the next day).

It was just a guess, calm down

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

^ @Sam Cash - well at least you got something right.

Rather than attempt to use smoke and fog effects that don't trigger detection systems (because it's practically impossible), what you need to do where you have those effects in use is to use fire detection systems that do not work by detecting particulate.

Being that these systems are far more expensive, they are only deployed where necessary.

***Disclaimer before anyone gets too upset - what I am about to say is merely my assumption, based on having at least a basic working knowledge of the industry that is easily a decade old, and therefore could be wrong. I have no sources within the park to confirm this (although i'm sure others will).

It is my belief that Movie World don't use 'special foggers'. It is my belief that the disco room is outfitted with fire detection systems that are unaffected by smoke haze effects.

Being that the system is quite pricey, it is also my belief that this system does not extend back into the ghost train load section of the building (being that they are really two different buildings), which also explains why on occasion when the effects are pumped up a little too high on a particularly busy day, that the repeated 'whoosh' of coaster cars moving from one room to the other do bring with them a little of the smoke particulate... where it then sets off the fire alarms in the other half of the building, and although well known, still requires a full process of shut down and evac to play it safe, which is why Scoob generally has at least one outage, generally in the mid-afternoon on busier days. (Reminder - this was totally my own view andor opinion based on nothing more than educated guesses, and could be completely wrong, but i'm pretty confident i'm in the ballpark).

And any AV company working in a venue with sensor systems that are able to detect smoke would generally liaise with the building's chief warden and determine either whether the effects are not to be used, or otherwise whether the sensors in the particular area where the effect will be used should be isolated, and other safeguards put in place.

I have seen this precise process used in a heritage listed building attached to the Westin in Sydney around 10 years ago, and it worked - although being heritage listed, they had several people who were not permitted to leave the room until the system was switched back on.

[ShakeShack]

AlexB thats what I have been told as well. The Que area is also fitted out with the same sort of sensors to allow for functions and other things in that area.

[westical]

I've been to a function in the queue area. I was a sad panda when I realised the ride wasn't actually operating, they were just using the space.

[rappa]

Correct above.

There are combo fire systems that require both smoke AND heat to trigger an alarm (can be known as 'rate of rise' dectors). The Scooby disco room works like this during ride operation. When the ride is shut down they revert to normal smoke detectors in case of fire.

The que is different and must be isolated for smoke effects.

[AllegroCrab]

The Fog machines that don't set of alarms are Ice ones. This is due to the fact that some smoke alarms use heat scenes. I have used both and the smoke alarm always goes of with the Heat Fog machine and the Ice one don't.

The fog that comes from dry ice is heavier than air, so it would be pretty stupid to use in the disco room as it wouldn't rise up far enough, unless you could have the ice on the roof or something.

Even then, dry ice isn't a very cost-efficient way of producing fog, and it is hard to handle. Wouldn't they need it to be delivered often?

[webslave]

The fog that comes from dry ice is heavier than air, so it would be pretty stupid to use in the disco room as it wouldn't rise up far enough, unless you could have the ice on the roof or something.

Even then, dry ice isn't a very cost-efficient way of producing fog, and it is hard to handle. Wouldn't they need it to be delivered often?

Yes, you'd need it delivered often, and dry ice is rather expensive. You then have OH&S risks associated with the handling of dry ice as it can be quite dangerous if the correct precautions (eg; PPE) are not taken. Some go with combination systems that use ice (being cheaper) to cool the regular output of a glycol system causing it to sit low to the ground. Antari, for example, make such a product; http://www.antari.com/index.php/web/Products_i/28. Of course, that's all well and good so long as you're going to be content to keep refilling the machine and have a process for dealing with the water. You can purchase refrigeration addons so that you don't need to use ice, but by that stage you're spending quite a bit of dosh. Some people just cut entry and exit holes into an esky filled with water and let that do the job.

The thing that keeps the fog low is purely the temperature. It will fall down steps and off edges of stages (and in stage shows, particularly, the orchestra pit). Dry ice will provide CO2 and water vapour and that's what gives you your smoke. It is normal in higher concentrations of smoke to find water deposits afterward.

Conventional (warm) smoke machines use glycol, usually mixed with distilled water (cheaper!). Different concentrations give you different dissipation times. The basic principle is that the stuff is pressurised (hence the noise you often hear at release) and passed through a hot element to vaporise it. It'll spread out through the air because it's quite warm. Afterwards in higher concentrations you'll end up with a sticky glycol residue over all your gear. Common failures on these machines are the pump assembly, the heating box/element, and blocked fluid hoses. None of that is much use if you run the machine dry though...

Hazers are a little different and are often considered 'atmospherics' by effects designers and is used to highlight beams of light through the air where they would otherwise not be visible. The trick with haze is to keep as low of a concentration in the air as possible whilst still being able to see light beams. Haze is designed to be turned on in advance of its use to allow it to spread throughout the space and is intended to keep a uniform distribution of particles through the air and uses a fan to achieve this. Afterwards you'll end up with an oily deposit across all of your gear. Hazers are more expensive, so you'll often see people buying smoke machines where a hazer is what is actually required. Smoke is used when you want to give the appearance of smoke; haze is used when you want to see beams of light.

All of these systems will set off photo-detectors when fitted to fire systems except in cases of low concentration where the detectors have been suitably desensitised once the smoke hits them. A more popular choice is to fit thermal detectors in areas where smoke is likely to be used. Many venues use a combination of both and isolate groups of detectors as required.

In terms of Scooby in particular, whilst I've never ridden the attraction with the effects working I would suggest that the correct choice for the space would be two hazers. Of course, these hazers will need frequent maintenance as they are usually not made to run for days at a time, and will also need frequent fluid refills to stave off the danger of running them dry (needing repairs). A consideration for the ride itself would no doubt be the continued deposits of residue on the track and associated equipment. No doubt this requires careful management.

And for the record (usually) don't use gobos as their beam width (being a laser and all) is insufficient. Instead they use mirrored prisms that move and rotate to create moving patterns. They also aren't gelled to different colours as white laser emitters are extremely rare, and therefore you can't make green light by using a subtractive process from a red light source. Instead there are separately coloured laser emitters in the same casing. Most lasers (or, at least most lasers you should be using around the general public) should have safety cutoffs so that in the event of a failure of the prism system (which would leave the entire output of the laser pointing in a single straight line without moving) the laser will be cut off to avoid damaging the sight of anyone in front of it.

Any questions?

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Yes - just one to verify you are a real person...

what's the meaning of life?

[webslave]

'twas 42, wasn't it?

I dunno, I'm not a Monty Python fan...

I know, it wasn't a Monty Python thing.