Dreamworld Steam Train

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

11 hours ago, The Sunlander said:

 Does my 50 year old car take longer to start than your one year old car??  Certainly not.  No matter how old or new the engine is, it will take the same time to prepare. 

Spoiler

 

Well actually, since the Baldwin is around 100 years old, your comparison should really be with a 100 year old car... and with that said, the USA's first patent for a starter motor was in 1911, with the Ford Model T still using a hand crank until 1920 - so your 100 year old car will take longer to start than my 1 year old car - especially since my one year old car will unlock when I touch the door handle, and start when I press a button, all without me touching the key, so long as it is in my pocket.

I think you've used a very poor example, but I understand what you're trying to say - which is 'a 100 year old locomotive will take the same time to build a head of steam today as it did 100 years ago.

The thing about that is - it might take the same time to prepare a ford model T today as it did 100 years ago, just as it might take the same time to prepare the Baldwin - but the problem is - after 100 years, things wear. Fresh off the factory floor, you could be pretty certain there wouldn't be any bent rods, cracked pistonheads or rust on the boiler.... 100 years later - there is MUCH MORE CHANCE of those...

Legally, before you drive a motor vehicle on a public road, it is the driver's responsibility to check that the car is in a roadworthy condition - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. But how many of us check our brake lights every time? How many check the oil, radiator, tyre pressure before we start the ignition? Especially on a brand new car that is still under it's service plan \ warranty.

But we don't, most of the time, because we drive the car every single day...

But what about a 100 year old car, that you only take out once a month for a sunday drive? You'd pay more attention to this antique piece of machinery, wouldn't you? Especially since nobody has run it in 4 weeks... you'd want to make sure everything was checked... wouldn't you?

I would suggest the Baldwin DOES in fact take longer to ready today, than it did 100 years ago.

 

TL:DR - I disagree with you. Because... reasons.

[WorldFun]

11 hours ago, Slick said:

Furthering this chain of thought, presuming the primary reason they tried to replace steam completely with a diesel alternative was because of ongoing fuel costs (granted there's other costs like staff, boiler servicing etc.), is there a possibility of a way or a group that'd be interested in doing any conversions or updates needed to the current Steam engine to bring it into an eco/cost friendly 2016?

Basically, say Dreamworld were reading this and the brief was "we can't afford to keep doing what we were doing because the fuel cost was hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, what else can we do to keep steam going?" what would you recommend?

To answer your question Slick yes there is, other railways around the world are running steam locos on recycled oil and I know of people who have run there diesel cars and trucks on old chip oil from takeaways, one could think that DW has this stuff in abundance which they give away to a mob to turns it in to something, so why not use some of that.

[Jakev8]

Found a pretty cool & rare photo off the Perry doing a double-header with the Baldwin back a few years ago, or it looks like that the Baldwin might have broken down and is getting a tow back in to the workshop/maintenance sheds.

Also a bit curious if anyone here has by any chance ever been inside the maintenance sheds and ever gotten any photos of the set up they have running in there?

[pin142]

I'm sure there are some people on here who have been inside the train maintenance shed. Would take a guess and say it would be similar to any normal workshop as far as setup goes. Only real difference is trains (now train and tractor ) instead of cars or trucks.

Edited February 27, 2016 by pin142

[The Sunlander]

1 hour ago, Jakev8 said:

Found a pretty cool & rare photo off the Perry doing a double-header with the Baldwin back a few years ago, or it looks like that the Baldwin might have broken down and is getting a tow back in to the workshop/maintenance sheds.

 

 

No, JakeV8, this photo was taken before park opening hours several years ago.  The Perry had had some maintenance done, and to check that it was fit for work, was given one trip around the circuit with the train, including the dead Baldwin loco to add a bit of weight.  A special stop was made approaching Rocky Hollow for a photograph of this unique occasion.  Only one trip was made, then back to the shed and the Baldwin was detached, to allow the Perry to run for the day..

Note, that if the Baldwin had indeed failed, it would be rescued by the Simplex loco, instead of waiting two hours to prepare the Perry.

10 hours ago, AlexB said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Well actually, since the Baldwin is around 100 years old, your comparison should really be with a 100 year old car... and with that said, the USA's first patent for a starter motor was in 1911, with the Ford Model T still using a hand crank until 1920 - so your 100 year old car will take longer to start than my 1 year old car - especially since my one year old car will unlock when I touch the door handle, and start when I press a button, all without me touching the key, so long as it is in my pocket.

I think you've used a very poor example, but I understand what you're trying to say - which is 'a 100 year old locomotive will take the same time to build a head of steam today as it did 100 years ago.

The thing about that is - it might take the same time to prepare a ford model T today as it did 100 years ago, just as it might take the same time to prepare the Baldwin - but the problem is - after 100 years, things wear. Fresh off the factory floor, you could be pretty certain there wouldn't be any bent rods, cracked pistonheads or rust on the boiler.... 100 years later - there is MUCH MORE CHANCE of those...

Legally, before you drive a motor vehicle on a public road, it is the driver's responsibility to check that the car is in a roadworthy condition - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. But how many of us check our brake lights every time? How many check the oil, radiator, tyre pressure before we start the ignition? Especially on a brand new car that is still under it's service plan \ warranty.

But we don't, most of the time, because we drive the car every single day...

But what about a 100 year old car, that you only take out once a month for a sunday drive? You'd pay more attention to this antique piece of machinery, wouldn't you? Especially since nobody has run it in 4 weeks... you'd want to make sure everything was checked... wouldn't you?

I would suggest the Baldwin DOES in fact take longer to ready today, than it did 100 years ago.

 

TL:DR - I disagree with you. Because... reasons.

Could you please explain why it would take longer?  I know of no obstacle.

[Jakev8]

47 minutes ago, The Sunlander said:

 

No, JakeV8, this photo was taken before park opening hours several years ago.  The Perry had had some maintenance done, and to check that it was fit for work, was given one trip around the circuit with the train, including the dead Baldwin loco to add a bit of weight.  A special stop was made approaching Rocky Hollow for a photograph of this unique occasion.  Only one trip was made, then back to the shed and the Baldwin was detached, to allow the Perry to run for the day..

Note, that if the Baldwin had indeed failed, it would be rescued by the Simplex loco, instead of waiting two hours to prepare the Perry.

Thanks for giving us the right info about the pic mate. 

Do you happen to know any info about that third engine that dreamworld brought? The Fowler 0-4-0 that sat on a side track next to the log ride if i faintly remember. Only ever remember seeing it a couple of times when i was kid

Edited February 27, 2016 by Jakev8

[red dragin]

The Sunlander, 

Would you agree that a loco in a poorer condition than a brand new one, would take a little longer to get running for the day?

That is, use a less intense fire to bring the water up to temperature slow to allow components to expand at a more "gentle" rate? 

It's more about condition than age to simplify it. 

[The Sunlander]

6 hours ago, Jakev8 said:

Thanks for giving us the right info about the pic mate. 

Do you happen to know any info about that third engine that dreamworld brought? The Fowler 0-4-0 that sat on a side track next to the log ride if i faintly remember. Only ever remember seeing it a couple of times when i was kid

The little Fowler 0-4-0T worked at Rocky Point sugar mill and when laid aside in the 1950s went for a short time at the Pleasure Island fun park near the Water Ski Gardens on the Nerang River.  That venture did not last long and the loco went to Gilltrap's Auto Museum.  Later it went on display at Dreamworld and was partially dismantled to ascertain its condition and suitability to be restored and added to Dreamworld's roster.  With the decision not to go ahead the engine was returned to Rocky Point where it underwent a cosmetic restoration.  The engine has since been placed on display at the Beenleigh Historic Village, where, in the open, it is showing the effects of the weather.

It is a beautiful looking little machine and would have looked great hauling Dreamworld's train.

If only .....

[Slick]

21 minutes ago, The Sunlander said:

The little Fowler 0-4-0T worked at Rocky Point sugar mill and when laid aside in the 1950s went for a short time at the Pleasure Island fun park near the Water Ski Gardens on the Nerang River.  That venture did not last long and the loco went to Gilltrap's Auto Museum.  Later it went on display at Dreamworld and was partially dismantled to ascertain its condition and suitability to be restored and added to Dreamworld's roster.  With the decision not to go ahead the engine was returned to Rocky Point where it underwent a cosmetic restoration.  The engine has since been placed on display at the Beenleigh Historic Village, where, in the open, it is showing the effects of the weather.

It is a beautiful looking little machine and would have looked great hauling Dreamworld's train.

If only .....

A quick Google makes me think this is it:

[The Sunlander]

4 minutes ago, Slick said:

A quick Google makes me think this is it:

Yes, that is it alright.  It is a little unusual in being what is termed a "well-tank" engine, carrying water for boiler feed in a tank between the frames below the boiler.  The Perry is a more usual "side-tank" engine, carrying water in tanks beside the boiler.

Edited February 28, 2016 by The Sunlander

[WorldFun]

For those intertested a little more info on the Fowler that has been mentioned by The Sunlander in recent posts.

http://www.lrrsa.org.au/LR234_p32-33.pdf

[WorldFun]

21 hours ago, AlexB said:

  Hide contents

 

Well actually, since the Baldwin is around 100 years old, your comparison should really be with a 100 year old car... and with that said, the USA's first patent for a starter motor was in 1911, with the Ford Model T still using a hand crank until 1920 - so your 100 year old car will take longer to start than my 1 year old car - especially since my one year old car will unlock when I touch the door handle, and start when I press a button, all without me touching the key, so long as it is in my pocket.

I think you've used a very poor example, but I understand what you're trying to say - which is 'a 100 year old locomotive will take the same time to build a head of steam today as it did 100 years ago.

The thing about that is - it might take the same time to prepare a ford model T today as it did 100 years ago, just as it might take the same time to prepare the Baldwin - but the problem is - after 100 years, things wear. Fresh off the factory floor, you could be pretty certain there wouldn't be any bent rods, cracked pistonheads or rust on the boiler.... 100 years later - there is MUCH MORE CHANCE of those...

Legally, before you drive a motor vehicle on a public road, it is the driver's responsibility to check that the car is in a roadworthy condition - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. But how many of us check our brake lights every time? How many check the oil, radiator, tyre pressure before we start the ignition? Especially on a brand new car that is still under it's service plan \ warranty.

But we don't, most of the time, because we drive the car every single day...

But what about a 100 year old car, that you only take out once a month for a sunday drive? You'd pay more attention to this antique piece of machinery, wouldn't you? Especially since nobody has run it in 4 weeks... you'd want to make sure everything was checked... wouldn't you?

I would suggest the Baldwin DOES in fact take longer to ready today, than it did 100 years ago.

 

TL:DR - I disagree with you. Because... reasons.

Alex B, what you are saying is that car technoligy has changed to allow quicker start up times compaired to old cars, however steam loco technoligy has not changed much in the last 100 years.

Just think of your kettle at home the more water you have in it the longer it takes to boil the water and if you have a small amount of water the less time it takes, when lighting up a steam loco the same applies, so your your suggestion that the Baldwin takes longer now to get steam up to day than it did 100 years ago is not correct.

[joz]

Are steam trains the same as kettles at home?  And if so have Dreamworld heard the saying 'A watched pot never boils', and considered not having someone supervise the process to make it go quicker?  Just thinking out loud here.

[WorldFun]

42 minutes ago, joz said:

Are steam trains the same as kettles at home?  And if so have Dreamworld heard the saying 'A watched pot never boils', and considered not having someone supervise the process to make it go quicker?  Just thinking out loud here.

joz, the principal is the same but on a larger scale obviously.

[Brad2912]

*sarcasm* tags needed...

[The Sunlander]

21 hours ago, pin142 said:

I'm sure there are some people on here who have been inside the train maintenance shed. Would take a guess and say it would be similar to any normal workshop as far as setup goes. Only real difference is trains (now train and tractor ) instead of cars or trucks.

The Train Shed - the only equipment - arc welder, bench vise, bench grinder. Utilities - electricity, water, compressed air.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

@The Sunlander - I explained in greater detail above - click the "reveal hidden contents" on my post.

In short, whilst I understand that with the same fire, a head of steam will be reached at roughly the same time, it is all the OTHER daily maintenance tasks, ones that you have to play more attention to the older something gets.

In short - you generally wouldn't need to check for grinds in your transmission fluid the day it rolled out of the dealership... but 50 years on, you most definitely would...

Obviously, this is a car comparison, and I realise a loco is different, but in the scheme of things, a new loco off the factory floor that had been run in could generally be trusted to be in better condition, and therefore need a more casual morning inspection before actually lighting the fire than one that was 100 years old.

[WorldFun]

@AlexB I can see what you are trying to get at but the differences you speak of are only small, the things that can affect the performance of a steam loco is bad water, bad coal or in Dreamworlds case bad diesel, the fire tubes could be clogged reducing the heat transfer, a loco like the Baldwin should be brought up to steam with in 4 hours from cold (ambient temperature), if it is warm from the previous days running then hour and half is more than ample.

[The Sunlander]

Hi AlexB -   I note your keen interest in the operation of steam engines so will attempt to explain.  All steam engines go through the same basic procedure when being made ready, whether they are 1 year old or 100 years old.  They are all built to the same principle and the technology is the same - nothing has changed for a "basic" engine such as operated at Dreamworld..

First, the boiler water level is checked by way of the sight glasses to ensure there is sufficient water, and a quick look under the loco to ensure there are no leaks anywhere. 

Dreamworld's engines were originally coal burners, but were converted to oil firing (dieseline) as there would be no coal dust, ash to get rid of, nor smoke, making for a much cleaner work environment.  In the firebox is a device known as the "atomizer", where fuel is sprayed in a mist by steam, and burns with a fierce flame.  In the absence of steam pressure in the morning, a compressed air line is attached to atomise the fuel.  The fuel is lit and the heating process has started.  Adjustments to the fuel supply and the compressed air ensures a clean burn.

Now the ritual of oiling-round is performed, where oil is applied by an oil can to various moving parts - axleboxes and the valve-gear etc - two dozen points on the Baldwin.  An experienced eye looks over the running gear to note if anything was amiss.  The lubricator which delivers "steam oil" to the valves and cylinders is topped up. The fuel tank is topped up from a hose just like at a service station.

It was Dreamworld's practice in later years to run an engine for an extended period (even a year or more) while the other just sat in the shed or had some maintenance performed.  So the water in the boiler being warm from the previous day, did not take long to boil and create steam pressure.  Once steam pressure was at 50 psi (pounds per square inch) the compressed air hose to the burner could be removed, and steam provided to the atomizer.  Steam pressure was allowed to rise slowly to the point where the safety valve lifted at 150 psi.  The boiler was blown-down - some water was released from the lowest point to carry away sludge and lower the amount of Total Dissolved Solids.  The boiler water was topped up by use of the injector and all was ready.

Dreamworld allocated the driver 2 hours to prepare the engine if warm, and 3 hours if from cold - generous figures.  Minor maintenance such as taking a few minutes to adjust the packing of the piston rod glands may be performed as required, but the engines are robust and reliable and can operate every day for 12 months with virtually no maintenance whatsoever.

This exact same procedure would be carried out in preparing a brand-new engine.  Age does not affect the procedure. There are no "delicate parts" nor other things to go wrong.  A steam engine does not change and become fragile simply because it gets older.

I hope this can explain some points that other Members have too. 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Thanks for the detail. I'm sure others appreciated it too.

Surely a 100 year old anything needs more attention paid to it than a 1 year old anything. You're painting these machines as infallible and indestructible when they aren't. Metal fatigue and thermo-mechanical fatigue are surely more likely after 100 years of exposure to constant firing and cooling cycles than 6 months after rolling out of the factory.

WorldFun agrees that there are differences, albeit small ones. The fact that they exist are sufficient to prove what i'm saying - it will take longer \ more care is needed to ensure close attention is paid to high risk elements.

[webslave]

1 minute ago, AlexB said:

Thanks for the detail. I'm sure others appreciated it too.

Surely a 100 year old anything needs more attention paid to it than a 1 year old anything. You're painting these machines as infallible and indestructible when they aren't. Metal fatigue and thermo-mechanical fatigue are surely more likely after 100 years of exposure to constant firing and cooling cycles than 6 months after rolling out of the factory.

WorldFun agrees that there are differences, albeit small ones. The fact that they exist are sufficient to prove what i'm saying - it will take longer \ more care is needed to ensure close attention is paid to high risk elements.

Actually, boilers tend to follow a bathtub curve of failure - a new boiler is at a higher risk of failure than one that is, say, 20 years old.  I reckon ol' Sunlander might have you on this one, Alex.

[red dragin]

Keeping in mind that a 100 year old loco isn't all 100 years old.

They say the Golden Gate bridge has been replaced several times through maintenance,

[The Sunlander]

4 hours ago, red dragin said:

Keeping in mind that a 100 year old loco isn't all 100 years old.

You are right, red dragin in stating that a 100 year old loco is not all original.  The boiler is one major component that would have been replaced as a matter of course.  The boiler must undergo a thorough inspection by a qualified boiler inspector on a periodic basis.  He may recommend replacement of stays or firetubes, or welding of specific areas, or if it has deteriorated to a level where repair would not be cost effective, may condemn it.  How long a boiler will last is difficult to foretell.  It may be as little as 25 years, or even more than 50 years.  A lot depends on water quality, water treatment chemicals, and the storage situation.  If a boiler is left unused with water in it for months on end, corrosion will make itself felt.  For long-time storage the boiler should be emptied and left dry.  Boiler plate may be15 mm thick or more, so there is a good factor of safety, but corrosion is a killer.

It is surprising just how much is original, though.  Original components on our engine include the mainframe, wheel centres (tyres are replaced when worn to condemning level), axles, valve gear, cylinders, (yes, the cylinders ARE original), sand dome, steam dome casing and more.  The transformation carried out  to work at Dreamworld included provision of new components - cow-catcher, smoke-stack, cab, headlight, bell and other minor decorative components.

[Wil_i_am_not]

One question for the Guru's, has the steam whistle been changed (or tweaked) at all throughout its history in the park? I remember riding the Perry back when the whistle was a bit of a lower pitch and then in its final operating months, the whistle seemed to be a higher pitch. Is this just my imagination or is it actually true?

[WorldFun]

@Wil_i_am_not Over the years the tone may have changed due to wear, the type that was used is an organ whistle which is commercially available through Blackwoods.

It is however possible that different whistles may have been tried over the years, personally I think a chime whistle (three or five notes or tones together) sound better than just a single note.