Speculation and media beat ups - Thunder River Rapids incident

[New display name]

No @Bailz They were sure they wanted to change it before.

[JeffreyMoore]

7 minutes ago, Bailz said:

But what I'm saying is they might not have been sure if they should change it. But after this as happened, they are like quick let's change it. @Brad2912

in the long run Ardent - Dreamworld can do what ever they like and be it weather or not they are found to be at fault for the incident.

4 people died at the park and nothing is going to change that nor are anyone going to forget just what has happened

[Brad2912]

12 minutes ago, Bailz said:

But what I'm saying is they might not have been sure if they should change it. But after this as happened, they are like quick let's change it. @Brad2912

 

[Jamberoo Fan]

1 hour ago, YLFATEEKS said:

If you have read it can you please just sum it us for us.   I am taking my wife out for a hot date tonight and I need get my bling on.  I'm going down to MW tomorrow to check the new coaster and hopefully find something new we can all talk about besides this.

No, I haven't read it. I tried looking briefly for an answer but I ran out of time so I posted the link here for someone else who had the time.

[New display name]

The truth of the matter is in a years time a lot of people will not remember who owns DW.   DW will hold the stigma for a long time to come.   

Edited October 28, 2016 by YLFATEEKS

[Carrie_Smattick]

The news was saying the park will stay closed until after the funerals of the victims.

In a situation like this, since it will be closed another week or two (one would guess) are the park staff still getting paid as they have no choice in the matter about being unable to work?

[Brad2912]

Permanent team members would most certainly be being paid as per their contract. 

Casual team members wouldn't be entitled to pay, though I'd hope DW would be compromising in some way, if for no reason than to avoid more negative press and added stress to their team. 

[Jamberoo Fan]

7 minutes ago, Carrie_Smattick said:

The news was saying the park will stay closed until after the funerals of the victims.

In a situation like this, since it will be closed another week or two (one would guess) are the park staff still getting paid as they have no choice in the matter about being unable to work?

The news about the park not opening prior to funerals has already been posted. You're not the only one but please try to see if stuff has been posted already. It isn't as chaotic as Parkz was on Tuesday so looking back on posts won't take too long anymore. Please read this post I just made which does answer the question of park staff being paid.

Also, Seven News reporting:

Quote

A former Dreamworld employee has made explosive claims about the safety culture at the park in an exclusive interview with 7 News.

The ex-ride attendant says training is rushed and new staff are not supervised.

7 News has...changed his name to protect his identity as he finally opened up about something he has held onto for years.

Michael claimed the training ride attendants receive is not sufficient.

“You were pretty much given about half an hour’s worth of training before the park opened and then the ride trainer would stay with you for about 15 to 20 minutes after that, and then they would go about their day,” he said.

Of the ride at the centre of Tuesday’s tragedy, Michael had this to say: “I do know of one person who did work there who did raise concerns about the conveyor system on the Thunder River ride, because it did have those gaps between the slats”.

Dreamworld says the claim is untrue and Thunder River Rapids operators must be among the most experienced of staff.

Others are now going public with their stories.

“There’s just no safety there, it’s just scary,” Greg Bates said.

“I don’t ever want to go back there again.

“My friend beside me turned around and he actually held onto the harness because he actually saw it move.

"I said something to someone there and they said, “It’s OK. You didn’t actually fall out”.”

If the harness referred to by 1 person as 'actually moving' was the Thunder River Rapids harness, it is a vecro strap - it is meant to move. It just must not come loose from the raft.

[JeffreyMoore]

the father of a casual team member rang ray hadley yesterday saying dreamworld had said his son will be paid

[Jamberoo Fan]

12 hours ago, Jamberoo Fan said:

If anyone wants to check to be absolutely sure of the Chairman's powers to defer votes, here is Ardent Leisure's company constitution.

I've looked through Ardent Leisure's company constitution as well as the Corporations Act 2001 and this, I believe, is what Ardent Leisure had the power to do:

1. Ardent Leisure had the power to adjourn the meeting to another date but it had to be held before November 30 - 5 months after the end of their financial year (June 30) as the Corporations Act 2001 states. Also, according to the same Act, they could request to the Australian Securities & Investments Commission to extend the time period to hold the meeting.
2. Like @Richard stated, proxy voting doesn't force the vote to go ahead until the chairperson calls the vote to be held at the meeting itself.
3. The chairperson could rule on all matters related to the meeting's order of business, procedure & conduct. The rest of the meeting has to respect any of these decisions but on the matter of adjournment, the rest of the meeting, if a majority is in favour, may request an adjournment or decline a chairperson's proposal to adjourn. In the case of adjournment, the wishes of the majority of the rest of the meeting has to be respected by the chairperson by law.

From this, I believe not only did the chairperson have the power to defer the vote but prior to the vote being called, a majority of the entire company at the meeting could have decided to adjourn to another date that was before November 30. The company could have requested to the Australian Securities & Investments Commission to extend the time period to hold the meeting too as a last resort.

Also:

The Brisbane Times is reporting:

Quote

The Australian Workers Union has given the detectives investigating Tuesday's four deaths on a Dreamworld ride two 2015 emails from senior Dreamworld staff which they say show the company understaffs some rides at the theme park.

The union's concerns did not include the Thunder River Rapids ride where four people died in an industrial accident on Tuesday afternoon.

The AWU made the decision to provide the information to detectives after Dreamworld on Thursday said it "benchmarked" its operations against the manufacturers' specifications.

Both emails were to the AWU's local organiser after a Dreamworld site visit.

The April 2, 2015 Dreamworld email says: "There is no indication in this manual that this ride must not be operated by more than one employee," AWU general secretary Ben Swann read to Fairfax Media from the email.

However, the ride's manual, which had to be obtained by the AWU from the manufacturer in Utah because Dreamworld refused to provide a copy, appears to refute this.

It says one person must give "his or her undivided attention" to the station operator's console.

The manual then adds: "This person must not leave the control console at any time. There should be one person, preferably two or more people on the loading and unloading side of the station, to assist people in and out of the carriages and to help passengers adjust the restraints."

Mr Swann said the emails were the cause of the AWU subsequently lodging a Right To Information request for safety breaches at Dreamworld with Queensland Workplace, Health & Safety in 2015.

Dreamworld spokesperson Miche Paterson, said the staffing issues raised by the AWU were central to the ongoing coroner's inquiry.

"These are the issues that will be at the core of the coronial investigation and that is precisely what the investigation will seek to find out." Ms Paterson said.

The ride the article is referring to is Hotwheels Sidewinder.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Jamberoo Fan
Added Brisbane Times Article

[razza1987]

"Juxtaposed against Thomas' bonus were early indications suggesting the four died for want of piece of updated equipment costing just a few hundred dollars – a limit switch that maintains distance between rafts on the ride which is thought to have failed."

 

Cheap piece of equipment could have prevented Dreamworld accident - The Sydney Morning Herald
 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/cheap-piece-of-equipment-could-have-prevented-dreamworld-accident-20161028-gscwei.html

 

"An independent safety inspector, Shaun Johnson, looked at air receivers on 13 rides in 2012, including the Thunder River Rapids Ride, and deemed all "not fit for service". He was so concerned by Dreamworld's response that he asked Workplace Health and Safety Queensland to mediate.

"The engineering department at Dreamworld did not produce any evidence of having a Quality Management System in place or any previous vessel inspection report," he wrote.

He was reported saying Dreamworld tried to pressure him into changing the 12 non-compliance ratings to compliance ratings. "I told them I wouldn't, I refused to change the report," he told News Corp.

In 2012 an audit log noted that several rides and water slides were in "dire need" of fixing, rust was visible and falling into pools, there were major leaks and cracks on slides and tape was used to cover some rides.

In 2013, a patron had his knee ripped open by metal exposed by worn-down padding. It had not been picked up in maintenance but was fixed soon after.

In 2014, the Australian Workers' Union raised concerns about "a culture of fear" among staff.

"In my opinion, Dreamworld targets employees who speak up," an unnamed employee said in another file released by the industrial relations office.

Since 2010 Dreamworld has faced more than half a dozen lawsuits with most settled out of court."

Edited October 28, 2016 by razza1987

[Brad2912]

Snippet of an article on GCB website from a witness. Didn't copy all of it as most has been posted previously but this one doesn't seem To give a level of insight 

THE ACCIDENT

“The empty tube was totally stuck (on the conveyor belt), like if you had a boat on a sandbar,” Ben said.

“It was as if there was not enough water to move it and then the tube with the people hit it and flipped (upright).

“The two men were sitting at the back of the tube, so they just went straight between two conveyor belts. I knew in my mind they didn’t stand a chance.

“The two women were at the top of the (upright) raft and were thrown into the water away from that area. Obviously the velcro straps (on the raft) aren’t the tightest of things.

“It was a miracle the children survived. They were beside each other and the positioning of the tube when it happened meant they were on the right-hand side. They sort of got flung out but I don’t know where they landed and I didn’t see anyone get them out (of the water).

“All I was able to see were the adults and there was no way the men could have survived.”

What about the women?

Police at the scene after the accident. Picture: AAP

“At first I thought they might have stood a chance because I didn’t see them sustain injuries but it all happened within seconds. They stopped the conveyor belt and everyone was doing everything they could.

“It took some time to drain the water and the (partner) of one of the women was trying to climb down to get her. He was covered in dirt and I remember him holding her in his arms.”

That woman was Kate Goodchild, whose partner had skipped the ride to look after their eight-month-old. Their other daughter was one of the children who survived.

“The first thing I noticed was her running out screaming, ‘Where’s my mummy? Where’s my mummy?’,” Ben said of 12-year-old Ebony.

“Two women tried to console her but she was hysterical after what took place.”

With tarps erected to shield the scene and emergency services on their way, Ben and about 30 other witnesses were ushered away.

“What I saw was enough,” he said.

“You just can’t believe what was happening in front of your eyes.”

Police at the scene on the third day into the investigation of the fatal accident on the Thunder River Rapids ride. Picture: NIGEL HALLETT

THE WATER

Ben is the first to admit he’s not an engineer or mechanic. That said, he knows what he saw that day.

“The water level on the rapids was low enough for me to notice,” he said.

“I think there probably was something wrong with a pump or some water intake on the day … if there had been more water on that conveyor belt, the (empty) raft might have kept moving.”

Ben is also a Dreamworld regular with a long memory.

“In the last six to eight months that ride has been out of action about four or five times when I’ve been there,” he said.

“I was there in April and noticed it was offline and there was no water in it. A previous time I got stuck halfway around and they had to let us all out.

“In my experience there have been issues with the ride but unfortunately nothing’s going to bring those poor people back.”

[Theme Park Girl]

Man, I have photographs I took of Eureka maintain about half an hour before the accident happened. They include the TRR reservoir and the river itself whilst in operation. Anyone know if I should be forwarding them onto anyone? I don't know if it they would be classed as a form of evidence or not, given that they were still taken a little while before the incident occurred. 

ETA: just jotted the QPS a quick email. No harm in offering if they may potentially help in any way. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Theme Park Girl

[bladex]

Quote

Juxtaposed against Thomas' bonus were early indications suggesting the four died for want of piece of updated equipment costing just a few hundred dollars – a limit switch that maintains distance between rafts on the ride which is thought to have failed."

 

Cheap piece of equipment could have prevented Dreamworld accident - The Sydney Morning Herald
 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/cheap-piece-of-equipment-could-have-prevented-dreamworld-accident-20161028-gscwei.html

 

"An independent safety inspector, Shaun Johnson, looked at air receivers on 13 rides in 2012, including the Thunder River Rapids Ride, and deemed all "not fit for service". He was so concerned by Dreamworld's response that he asked Workplace Health and Safety Queensland to mediate.

"The engineering department at Dreamworld did not produce any evidence of having a Quality Management System in place or any previous vessel inspection report," he wrote.

He was reported saying Dreamworld tried to pressure him into changing the 12 non-compliance ratings to compliance ratings. "I told them I wouldn't, I refused to change the report," he told News Corp.

In 2012 an audit log noted that several rides and water slides were in "dire need" of fixing, rust was visible and falling into pools, there were major leaks and cracks on slides and tape was used to cover some rides.

In 2013, a patron had his knee ripped open by metal exposed by worn-down padding. It had not been picked up in maintenance but was fixed soon after.

In 2014, the Australian Workers' Union raised concerns about "a culture of fear" among staff.

"In my opinion, Dreamworld targets employees who speak up," an unnamed employee said in another file released by the industrial relations office.

Since 2010 Dreamworld has faced more than half a dozen lawsuits with most settled out of court."

it seems dw have been cutting corners for a long time i'm amazed nothing else has ever gone terribly wrong.

[Ashley]

1 hour ago, Theme Park Girl said:

Man, I have photographs I took of Eureka maintain about half an hour before the accident happened. They include the TRR reservoir and the river itself whilst in operation. Anyone know if I should be forwarding them onto anyone? I don't know if it they would be classed as a form of evidence or not, given that they were still taken a little while before the incident occurred. 

ETA: just jotted the QPS a quick email. No harm in offering if they may potentially help in any way. 

Well like you said it will be evidence, everyone else has a story but you have photos and would most likely be able to give people an idea on whether or not water level was a little low (I don't know if the water was low would it show up like it would at the station if that makes sense).

[red dragin]

1 hour ago, Theme Park Girl said:

Can't loose the quote boxes! 

@Theme Park Girl. I'd call the station handling it or Policelink . 

@bladex. What that and many other articles fail to mention is that the air compressors where deemed not to need certification by the department upon review. 

1 hour ago, Theme Park Girl said:

 

[GoGoBoy]

22 hours ago, Richard said:

Not if the design, maintenance or operation of the road was a key factor in the accident.

I think it is worth looking to overseas incidents to get an idea of how things could/should potentially play out. Thinking back to the death on Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, I understand that the park remained open and ultimately the ride itself was re-opened. This is despite the fact that the park was found to be at fault, with poor maintenance procedures cited as the main reason for the derailment and subsequent death. I mean this is Disneyland! Poor maintenance at Disneyland! Years later, and most people wouldn't even remember it. I understand Disney undertook to significantly improve their processes. The ride was refurbished quite substantially recently.

With this in mind, Dreamworld should surely be able to continue on, even if they are found to be at fault, so long as they rectify any and all maintenance and/or procedural shortcomings. Re-opening the rapid ride may be a stretch, particularly considering the horrific number of deaths. The only way I could see that happening is after a massive upgrade that makes significant changes to the design and operation of the ride. New rafts - new conveyor belt - new theming etc. But these rides (as much as I love them) have been involved in a number of incidents overseas, so I would remain somewhat nervous about it if I was in charge at DW.

Edited October 29, 2016 by GoGoBoy

[Richard]

My comment was only insofar as the ridiculous comparison to a road accident. An otherwise normal road is safe to resume operations once the scene of an accident is cleared.

It is increasingly apparent from the available evidence and eyewitness accounts that design, equipment, policies or procedures -- or a combination of these four -- caused this accident at Dreamworld. It's hard to imagine any way that the root cause of this incident will be a single catastrophic failure like Big Thunder Mountain, but rather a series of failings that led to this tragic outcome. 

I dare say Disney's political muscle and their ability to weather that storm is unique to Disney, like so many aspects of the company. Citing that case really just demonstrates just how strong Disney are.

The park will resume operations in the near future and I wouldn't suggest otherwise at this point. But the overwhelming mood here seems to be to steadfastly defend the park and insist that every other aspect of Dreamworld is OK to go and just waiting the appropriate grieving period. To me this is an assertion that's just not possible with the information that is known publicly.

[razza1987]

New media release by Dreamworld:

 

 

[Theme Park Girl]

Looks like it's a massive safety crackdown for all Queensland theme parks now... absolutely no chances are being taken. 

http://www.news.com.au/national/australian-theme-parks-to-undergo-safety-blitz/news-story/3724f2ba0b87abc4ff37298fd7f89797

Edited October 29, 2016 by Theme Park Girl

[razza1987]

22 minutes ago, Theme Park Girl said:

Looks like it's a massive safety crackdown for all Queensland theme parks now... absolutely no chances are being taken. 

http://www.news.com.au/national/australian-theme-parks-to-undergo-safety-blitz/news-story/3724f2ba0b87abc4ff37298fd7f89797

In my opinion this is a good thing. The safer the parks are the better. Lessons will be learned from what has happened during the last week. The parks will only become safer after all of this. Sad that it took this to happen though

[razza1987]

The theme park's CEO, Craig Davidson, said all pre-purchased Dreamworld tickets would be refunded and that no customer would be out of pocket.
He said four trees would be planted inside Dreamworld as a memorial to the four people who lost their lives.
"We would see the flowers behind us become a part of that memorial," he said.
Mr Davidson said he knew there was a big job ahead to rebuild community trust.  

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-29/dreamworld-tragedy-prompts-statewide-theme-park-safety-blitz/7977434?pfmredir=sm

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-29/dreamworld-ceo-craig-davidson-memorial/7977604

Edited October 29, 2016 by razza1987

[Jamberoo Fan]

8 hours ago, razza1987 said:

"Juxtaposed against Thomas' bonus were early indications suggesting the four died for want of piece of updated equipment costing just a few hundred dollars – a limit switch that maintains distance between rafts on the ride which is thought to have failed."

Cheap piece of equipment could have prevented Dreamworld accident - The Sydney Morning Herald
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cheap-piece-of-equipment-could-have-prevented-dreamworld-accident-20161028-gscwei.html

Just for everyone's information, this is not an 'early indication' from the investigation. It is just an expert's speculation, which you can only find out by reading the article (It is mentioned half way into the long article). @razza1987, all the other quotes that featured in that same post of yours have already been posted in other posts that feature the original articles they were mentioned in. Be careful reading media articles as nowadays, they include heaps of old information to make the article look more detailed than it really is.

4 hours ago, Ashley said:

I don't know if the water was low would it show up like it would at the station if that makes sense

Given the water pumps are at the station, I think it would be very noticeable if the water level was low as the water pumps wouldn't be operating as fast as they would (unless of course the water was being drained from somewhere it shouldn't be).

Quote

“I was there in April and noticed it was offline and there was no water in it."

The quote above is from this post. I looked back on archives of Dreamworld's website earlier this week & Thunder River Rapids had scheduled maintenance from the 25th of April to the 15th of May. This might have been what he was seeing.

28 minutes ago, razza1987 said:

The theme park's CEO, Craig Davidson, said all pre-purchased Dreamworld tickets would be refunded and that no customer would be out of pocket.

You already posted that in the media statement you embedded.

[razza1987]

6 minutes ago, Jamberoo Fan said:

Just for everyone's information, this is not an 'early indication' from the investigation. It is just an expert's speculation, which you can only find out by reading the article (It is mentioned half way into the long article). @razza1987, all the other quotes that featured in that same post of yours have already been posted in other posts that feature the original articles they were mentioned in. Be careful reading media articles as nowadays, they include heaps of old information to make the article look more detailed than it really is.

Given the water pumps are at the station, I think it would be very noticeable if the water level was low as the water pumps wouldn't be operating as fast as they would (unless of course the water was being drained from somewhere it shouldn't be).

The quote above is from this post. I looked back on archives of Dreamworld's website earlier this week & Thunder River Rapids had scheduled maintenance from the 25th of April to the 15th of May. This might have been what he was seeing.

You already posted that in the media statement you embedded.

Are you for real? I was giving a headline and summary for the article and you want to nitpick 

Edited October 29, 2016 by razza1987

[Jamberoo Fan]

If you were referring to the Cheap piece of equipment could have prevented Dreamworld accident article, your summary didn't include 2 key paragraphs:

Quote

Dr David Eager, who represents Engineering Australia on the Amusement Rides and Devices Standards Committee, said it's likely the ride had a malfunctioning limit switch, a sensor-like device that maintains distance between rafts.

A new limit switch would have cost only a couple of hundred dollars, says Eager, an associate professor of electrical, mechanical and mechatronic engineering at UTS.

It is so far down the article that's why I pointed it out as that article's headline can easily be read as to do with the official investigation findings when it is not - it is just an expert's speculation. The rest of the quotes that you added from the article are not related to the general premise of the article (the limit switch) and is simply old information to make the article look more detailed.

If you're referring to Dreamworld tragedy prompts statewide theme park 'safety blitz' amid broader workplace audit article, this part of your summary...:

Quote

The theme park's CEO, Craig Davidson, said all pre-purchased Dreamworld tickets would be refunded and that no customer would be out of pocket.

...had nothing to do with the general premise of the article (QLD Government theme park safety audit) & was already posted in the media statement you embedded only an hour earlier.

It's fine to share news article headlines with a summary - I'm just requesting to ensure the summary reflects the article and doesn't contain information that's already posted. The forum topics are very long so it is understandable that it's hard to check to see if that information was already posted (It was within 24 hours of the incident occurring after all) so I just thought I would simply let you know and that I would give you the advice that the media includes old information in articles nowadays to make articles look more detailed than they really are/need to be.