Parkz News Village Roadshow shares dive following theme park trading update

[TomiJ]

@Jamberoo Fan has some good points I feel the rides closure was coming in the near future (12-18 months) and was a unexpected closure. @SlickI don't have any core or solid evidence to prove it either,  but if you can do you mind elaborating more on your claim "Because i'm reliably informed that it was anything but". (I'm aware you probably can't). 

Anyway I'm really enjoying this in depth discussion. You guys have some great knowledge and experience. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by TomiJ

[Bush Beast Forever]

12 minutes ago, Cactus_Matt said:

I was thinking parks like Kings Dominion, Busch Gardens (Tampa or Williamsburg), and various Six Flags parks. Would never compare our parks to any Disney or Universal parks.

These parks are still much larger than ours attendance wise. Especially when you factor in most being seasonal parks and therefore only being open (and having operating costs for a part of the year):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amusement_park_rankings

[joz]

50 minutes ago, Bush Beast Forever said:

My frustration is how enthusiasts that are supposed to be supportive of parks seem to jump at the opportunity to blame Village for every woe that befalls them. This despite the fact that they are clearly the more committed company to the industry and that the parks havent been a great investment for them for some time now with earnings peaking in FY10. i.e. 7 years ago!

This is the issue here.  Everyone wants a hyper coaster, including me, but I also want to spend $30~million on park improvements.  One of the things I've said before is that if I got my way with everything, the parks would be bankrupt by the end of the week.  Obviously you can't have both, there is only so much money to spend.  They've not been afraid to invest in the parks, and for the most part they spend it on pretty decent stuff. 

 

But you can't deny what's been going on inside the parks either, and that's what I'm getting at.  From the outside it looks like shit went down at Dreamworld, and insurance went way up, and before anyone could do anything someone from finance has just said 'we're not paying to insure it, whatever it is get rid of it' despite that leaving both parks looking well below their best right when they need the parks to be looking good (both from a traditional peak season POV but also just for public perception).  Or it could be that the themeing was actually dangerous and Viking's was run past the point where it was safe to run it.  Neither of those possibilities cast VRTP in a good light.   

 

It's funny you should mention Pirate Ship; I've heard through the grapevine that the park did lament closing Pirate Ship, and looked into getting a replacement, but they then discovered it would be too tall and they couldn't get permission.  Given they built Storm after that story was told I tend to think it was bogus or just one of those things where someone tells a story to justify a crappy decision.  On a similar note Skyway was actually on the chopping block for a long time before it closed, like they knew they were getting rid of it a couple years before it went, and I remember someone buttered up the staff saying 'Once Storm opens Skyway with have to close because of how close it is'.  That story came from an entertainment manager so who knows where they got that story from, but it's a weird story for someone to go ahead and make up.  Of course Skyway and Storm went on to co-exist for a year or so before Skyway closed, so that story was also some made up to soften an unpopular decision.  Heck I'm surprised no one has made the excuse that the reason Mammoth Plunge is still there is because if they took it down they wouldn't be able to build that tall there again (in the past the tower did stand without slides for a year or 2 so it's not that)

 

I got side tracked but the point of these stories is to say I'm skeptical when I get given some story about why something has to close, when the reality is components just reached the end of their life and it wasn't deemed worth it to replace, and I think there's a bit of that going on now.  'Oh we started to re-do the themeing then we realized it wasn't going to be done but we opened it anyway so guests don't miss out'.  'Yeah we closed the Flume ride but there's a new attraction coming in 3 years and that's why we closed it'.  'WnWS has seen it's attendance drop because of events at Dreamworld rather than the reputation for poor customer service and the lack od new attractions'.  You can see why I'm skeptical about it right?

 

Like I say, I'm not knocking them for the investments they've made in the theme park division, clearly it's to be commended but I reserve the right to notice and bemoan the fact that despite all the money going in, the parks seem to be going backwards right now.  That's not really something that's up for debate, the parks are going backwards right now.

 

Finally, as for our parks v American parks, yeah it's not going to happen that we get something on that scale for a long time.  Low population combined with higher operating costs makes for a bad time for parks like that out here.  I think sometimes though it is easy to lose sight of how good some of the stuff here is.  Like Superman is a crazy good ride.  WWF is also all kinds of awesome, likewise Giant Drop is that class with the really big boys.  If Giant Drop wasn't here you'd see people saying 'could you imagine if we had a ride like that here?' and they'd be shot down in flames for being unrealistic.  Yet there it is, having it's awesomeness largely taken for granted.  There is really good stuff here, that's probably why I care as much as I do.

[Cactus_Matt]

6 minutes ago, joz said:

Finally, as for our parks v American parks, yeah it's not going to happen that we get something on that scale for a long time.  Low population combined with higher operating costs makes for a bad time for parks like that out here.  I think sometimes though it is easy to lose sight of how good some of the stuff here is.  Like Superman is a crazy good ride.  WWF is also all kinds of awesome, likewise Giant Drop is that class with the really big boys.  If Giant Drop wasn't here you'd see people saying 'could you imagine if we had a ride like that here?' and they'd be shot down in flames for being unrealistic.  Yet there it is, having it's awesomeness largely taken for granted.  There is really good stuff here, that's probably why I care as much as I do.

I don't disagree there's much to love about our parks, Superman, WWF and Giant Drop are among my Top 5 rides of all time in this country. But they are rides that are in the case of the latter two are nearly 20 years old (scary right?)! It's absurd that we're making excuses when nearly two decades have passed and we've got so little to show for it. The Australian parks had their golden age and we've been wallowing in mediocrity since, here's hoping whatever Movie World builds can lead to a new renaissance, but I'm not holding my breath.

[iwerks]

4 hours ago, Jamberoo Fan said:

Quick comparison of annual attendance:

• Dreamworld (2015/2016 - inclusive of Whitewater World & SkyPoint): 2,413,937 (6,614 people/day on average)
• Magic Kingdom (2015): 20,492,000 (56,143 people/day on average)

With attendances like that, the US theme parks clearly earn more money to spend on their theme parks.

What percentage of the gate entries are season pass goers?

There's a bit of a price difference for season passes in the US vs GC.

I feel giving away the gate has led this competition to the bottom.  I know some people in Perth bemoan the fact that AW's season pass is more expensive than a 4 park one for VRTP, but at least we're getting something new every couple of years.

I think when theme parks rely on F&B to pay the bills, they don't appear to care about customer satisfaction in the rest of the park.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Rarely do I doubt a statement made by @joz - especially one said with such conviction that he uses the word 'reliably' - but I do have to question - if they'd planned all along to close Vikings at the time that they did, why then was work completed to fit new anti-rollbacks on the lift prior to the shuttering?

I feel as though @Jamberoo Fan has *shudder* made a valid point that while they may have intended to close it sooner rather than later, that the timing of the closure was not planned far in advance, but perhaps as a result of revelations discovered during maintenance, or otherwise because of the dreamworld incident.

I've always been a Village supporter. Never had a lot of time for Dreamworld and that was primarily because of what has been discussed in the past - Dreamworld management turnover, and a hesitation to spend money on the park in favour of propping main event - which led to disrepair.

But the current Village situation - sure we've got some great new things coming, and they have also spent money on polishing up older attractions (Arkham, WWF, now Scooby) I do feel as though they've shot for the moon with the hyper, and have left nothing in the bank for general maintenance and operations.

We've seen them drop money on non-ride improvements - but for the most part those improvements are things that will make money - like Sea World's plaza as a night venue - where is the love though? Where is the second train operation on JR and SE during peak time? Why didn't \ haven't they invested in a new Arkham train? Why do we still have 20 minutes of donuts as our signature stunt show?

Why haven't we seen Sea World get some attention it deserves? MW will have two new rides - coaster and a flat - installed within 12 months of each other, yet Sea World has lost a coaster, a transport, two flumes, a water park, (in recent times anyway) and all we've seen come back is a coaster. 3 years for flume replacement is disgusting - and if they 'reliably' planned to close vikings when they did, then the new attraction should have been around the corner, not circling around the block 6 times.

[New display name]

3 hours ago, AlexB said:

not circling around the block 6 times.

Wow you're giving SW to much credit.  We will only be waiting for 6 more laps around the block.  I was going with the iron ore still hasn't been mined yet.

When my family was over last Christmas and I took them to MW I deliberately told them the wrong time to meet up for stunt driver.  “Oh what a pity we missed the last show” Saved a lot of embarrassment on my part.

How can Village put on a great show at Outback Spectacular and deliver garbage at MW?  You imagine if the stunt driver people ran the show at Outback Spectacular.  It would be 2 horses trotting around in circles while you ate your dinner.

"Encore, Encore"

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by YLFATEEKS

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

23 minutes ago, YLFATEEKS said:

Wow you're giving SW to much credit.  We will only be waiting for 6 more laps around the block.  I was going with the iron ore still hasn't been mined yet.

I don't think so... Taking into account that a closure to make way for a new attraction, followed by demolition, site preparation and construction of the new attraction is usually at least 12 months, i phrased 'around the corner' intending that to be similar to that period, or at the least the time from site prep to opening (around 4-6 months) - so a block would be 4 corners, and 6 times around the block would be 24 corners - amply covering the purported 3 year period we're currently facing (but it SEEMS like 8-24 years away)..

[Jamberoo Fan]

12 hours ago, iwerks said:

What percentage of the gate entries are season pass goers?

For Magic Kingdom, I don't know but I'd assume for DW, that it would be similar to VRTP's 60% QLD visitation. Either way, the 'missing' general admission ticket sales would probably be mostly replaced with extra F&B/upcharge/retail sales from season pass holders.

Quote

There's a bit of a price difference for season passes in the US vs GC.

True - this is a comparison of annual passes though:

• Disney Platinum Pass: AUD$985
• Dreamworld Annual Pass: AUD$109
• Difference: AUD$876

Note: Disney Platinum Pass comes with more features (i.e. 2-3 extra theme parks, parking, photo downloads etc.)

Edited January 24, 2017 by Jamberoo Fan

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

1. I think you're grossly overestimating the amount most passholders pay per visit. See the thing about local passholders is they can drop by for an hour, ride a ride or two, and leave - no food, no drink, no locker if they're smart about it - hardly covers the cost of the full priced entry ticket. Even when I visit for a full day I will only drop about $15 on food and drink which again - hardly covers the GA ticket.
2. Your disney comparison is always going to fail. Few people outside South East Queensland are passholders to our parks. In the US - many disneyphiles across the states will hold a pass - and the price they charge for their passes is actually intended to be a bit of a barrier - they're limiting the amount of passholders they get by making them super unaffordable - and people are still paying it... because disney is a world unto itself.

[Bush Beast Forever]

7 hours ago, AlexB said:

Why haven't we seen Sea World get some attention it deserves? MW will have two new rides - coaster and a flat - installed within 12 months of each other, yet Sea World has lost a coaster, a transport, two flumes, a water park, (in recent times anyway) and all we've seen come back is a coaster.

That's a bit harsh when you look at the facts.

As far as SW guests go the waterpark went in 2008 when it became an upcharge (or only for resort guests). If you use that date as your starting point you have to add Jet Rescue on the plus side of the ledger.

BT closed in 2010 (earliest of your list of lost attractions ex waterpark).

SW built Castaway Bay in 2010.

SW built Penguin Encounter in 2010.

SW built Storm in 2013.

SW built Seal Harbour in 2013.

SW added the Affinity show in 2014.

SW completely rebuilt the kids area (almost all rides brand new) in 2015.

SW built Creatures of the Deep in 2015.

In CY16 SW clearly spent a tonne of money on a total overhaul of the dining precincts.

VRTP have actually spent quite a lot of capex in the park over the years. The problem in my view is:

1) They've spent too much on non ride attractions and nice to have guest amenities vs rides for families and enthusiasts.

2) They've had too many attractions bite the dust whether on purpose or due to unforeseen circumstances (e.g. seems like they were keen to keep both SV and VR judging by the extended maintenance that occurred prior to closure).

Either way they've failed to build in a buffer for unforeseen circumstances.

3) Arguably the spend on the MW hyper in 2016 and 2017 should have been budgeted across the parks for a number of smaller attractions with SW in particular being head of the queue. VR going has shown the folly of putting all eggs in one basket.

 

[Richard]

26 minutes ago, Bush Beast Forever said:

Either way they've failed to build in a buffer for unforeseen circumstances.

I think this is primarily it, and it's the thing that everyone seems to be in agreement on despite this debate going around in circles.

The problem faced by Sea World is some of its infrastructure is pushing 40 years now. No doubts that huge amounts of money are sunk each year into things that guests never see. Plenty more into things that guests see but don't get anything tangible from. No question it's a huge and thankless undertaking, because no one really cares about a replacement footbridge or a new kitchen.

Parts of Sea World that have been replaced, rejuvenated or well maintained are looking sharp. Other parts less-so, and right now there's a few too many conspicuous reminders of old attractions, dead ends and just tired or unused portions of the park. That's not saying anything of the convoluted mess of paths, tunnels and bridges that that entire middle section of the park has become. The most promising aspect of the closure of Viking's Revenge is fixing this finally.

A friend who's not a theme park type summed up Sea World perfectly on a recent visit: "Everywhere you go it looks like you're in a backstage area looking out into the park."

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

2 hours ago, Bush Beast Forever said:

That's a bit harsh when you look at the facts.

As far as SW guests go the waterpark went in 2008 when it became an upcharge (or only for resort guests). If you use that date as your starting point you have to add Jet Rescue on the plus side of the ledger.

BT closed in 2010 (earliest of your list of lost attractions ex waterpark). Agreed 

SW built Castaway Bay in 2010. And lost several pools, and attractions <offset>

SW built Penguin Encounter in 2010. Not a ride

SW built Storm in 2013. <Offset BT>

SW built Seal Harbour in 2013.Not a ride

SW added the Affinity show in 2014.Not a ride, and wasn't an addition, it replaced 'Imagine'

SW completely rebuilt the kids area (almost all rides brand new) in 2015. - Look, fair call on this one. I've only once ever walked through that area, and only because the Plaza construction forced me to. It has never formed part of my day at Sea World (although in the future it will) so I don't really consider it 'overall' to the park, and i'm sure most people without small children don't either.

SW built Creatures of the Deep in 2015. Not a ride, arguably replaced the dinosaurs that were there prior.

In CY16 SW clearly spent a tonne of money on a total overhaul of the dining precincts. Not a ride

VRTP have actually spent quite a lot of capex in the park over the years. The problem in my view is:

1) They've spent too much on non ride attractions and nice to have guest amenities vs rides for families and enthusiasts.

2) They've had too many attractions bite the dust whether on purpose or due to unforeseen circumstances (e.g. seems like they were keen to keep both SV and VR judging by the extended maintenance that occurred prior to closure).

Either way they've failed to build in a buffer for unforeseen circumstances.

3) Arguably the spend on the MW hyper in 2016 and 2017 should have been budgeted across the parks for a number of smaller attractions with SW in particular being head of the queue. VR going has shown the folly of putting all eggs in one basket.

 

The waterpark had different entry requirements, but was still open to park guests for a fee... became an upcharge if you will,  so i don't consider 2008 as being relevant. It occurred much more recently. Green I can agree with, red I don't. Remember, my post (that you accused me of being too harsh on) was discussing rides:

11 hours ago, AlexB said:

Why haven't we seen Sea World get some attention it deserves? MW will have two new rides - coaster and a flat - installed within 12 months of each other, yet Sea World has lost a coaster, a transport, two flumes, a water park, (in recent times anyway) and all we've seen come back is a coaster. 3 years for flume replacement is disgusting - and if they 'reliably' planned to close vikings when they did, then the new attraction should have been around the corner, not circling around the block 6 times.

MW have two new rides to open within 12 months of each other, in addition to improvements around the park. Sea World has improvements around the park, but no attractions (I reiterate i'm not counting children's area), and lost several non-children's area attractions.

In your timeline (in which you describe BT's closure) You failed to include the closure of SeaScrewCorkViper, closure of Vikings Revenge, closure of Skyway, and you disagree with me on the appropriate place in the timeline for the waterpark, for which I shall agree to disagree - the fact remains that the park closed a coaster and two flumes, and only put in a new coaster.

1 hour ago, Richard said:

A friend who's not a theme park type summed up Sea World perfectly on a recent visit: "Everywhere you go it looks like you're in a backstage area looking out into the park."

I take this point here with it's appropriate effect, but they'd have to be at least somewhat familiar with theme park 'types' to refer to it as 'backstage'. Nothing turns on this and their point is still appropriate and valid... just an observation.

[webslave]

When we visited Sea World a couple of months ago we arrived at 9:45am and left a bit before 2pm.  I don't feel like I particularly missed anything.  The middle of the park is like a maze, the jet ski show a yawn, Affinity not noticeably different to Imagine, the dining options in the plaza are uninspiring, and like the other parks the refill stations for soft drink are under-sized and too few.

[Jamberoo Fan]

4 hours ago, AlexB said:

1. I think you're grossly overestimating the amount most passholders pay per visit. See the thing about local passholders is they can drop by for an hour, ride a ride or two, and leave - no food, no drink, no locker if they're smart about it - hardly covers the cost of the full priced entry ticket. Even when I visit for a full day I will only drop about $15 on food and drink which again - hardly covers the GA ticket.

Yeah, I agree but I wasn't 'overestimating'. I was just saying what I've read people say on here (as I assumed they know better than me due to being local passholders & what they said was fairly reasonable) but given I still wasn't exactly convinced (due to the same arguments you wrote above), that's why I wrote:

5 hours ago, Jamberoo Fan said:

Either way, the 'missing' general admission ticket sales would probably be mostly replaced with extra F&B/upcharge/retail sales from season pass holders.

[Bush Beast Forever]

1 hour ago, AlexB said:

The waterpark had different entry requirements, but was still open to park guests for a fee... became an upcharge if you will,  so i don't consider 2008 as being relevant. It occurred much more recently. Green I can agree with, red I don't. Remember, my post (that you accused me of being too harsh on) was discussing rides:

MW have two new rides to open within 12 months of each other, in addition to improvements around the park. Sea World has improvements around the park, but no attractions (I reiterate i'm not counting children's area), and lost several non-children's area attractions.

In your timeline (in which you describe BT's closure) You failed to include the closure of SeaScrewCorkViper, closure of Vikings Revenge, closure of Skyway, and you disagree with me on the appropriate place in the timeline for the waterpark, for which I shall agree to disagree - the fact remains that the park closed a coaster and two flumes, and only put in a new coaster.

I didnt fail to include those rides that closed I merely stated that if you go back as far as 2008 (when the waterpark ceased to be an included part of the park) then you have to include Jet Rescue on the plus side.

BT was the next ride to close in 2010 so I looked at spend since then.

Fact is since 2010 they have invested in rides 3 times (and yes Castaway Bay and the Nickolodean area do count).

Is it enough? No clearly not and I already stated that but that is mostly because of how many rides have closed on the other side (two of which appear to not have been within their control) not from a total lack of spend.

Additionally they have added two animal attractions which while not being rides are attractions (and the key reason why most of the target market comes to the park by the way). DW for instance hasnt added a ride in 2016 but has completely refurbished Tiger Island. Nobody would say they've done nothing this year.

To be clear I am not saying SW have done a good job with keeping up their ride count. Clearly they have misallocated their spend and left themselves in a position where unexpected ride closures (SV in 2014 and VR in 2016) have left them with a far too small ride count.

[Richard]

1 hour ago, AlexB said:

I take this point here with it's appropriate effect, but they'd have to be at least somewhat familiar with theme park 'types' to refer to it as 'backstage'. Nothing turns on this and their point is still appropriate and valid... just an observation.

I brushed up the terminology for this crowd. The exact phrasing was "it's like you're in the back of it looking out". The point was just that casual park-goers notice these things too.

[pin142]

13 hours ago, webslave said:

refill stations for soft drink are under-sized and too few.

Slightly off topic but how are these actually policed? What's stopping someone from BYO they previously had and keep using it without paying the reactivation fee for the DIY stations at Movie World and possibly Sea World? I have never bothered bringing one back (it is stupidly expensive to reactivate and just as cheap to buy a new one) but did notice the Gold Coast parks use a RF dot (at least at Wet'n'Wild') in comparison to the wrist band they attach in Sydney. Surely the band for day of purchase which would be replaced on next visit when re-activated would make more sense than a RF dot that needs to be scanned to verified it is ok to refill and quicker for staff and guests. Alternative option would be band on day of purchase, pay per refill on additional visit (made use of this at Six Flags and Knotts last year, $1 refills when next visiting a SF/CF park).

[New display name]

@pin142 I purchased one at WnW GC and got a wrist band.  I don't think it is policed because when I went to SW people were filling up whatever they could use to hold a liquid.

Edited January 25, 2017 by YLFATEEKS

[pin142]

Oh, my last visit to WnW GC I confused the staff with my Sydney bottle as it didn't have a dot on it @YLFATEEKS. Interesting to know about the lack of policing. Guess it runs on a honesty system.

[New display name]

1 minute ago, pin142 said:

Oh, my last visit to WnW GC I confused the staff with my Sydney bottle as it didn't have a dot on it @YLFATEEKS. Interesting to know about the lack of policing. Guess it runs on a honesty system.

Really, I only went a few days before Christmas. 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

At the end of the day, with so many other issues in the park, losing what generally amounts to a few cents of soda per customer isn't probably a big loss for them to take, to make up for the shambles that the park currently is.

"well we had a shit day and only got 1 ride, we got lost through a myriad of tunnels and pathways, and we missed the seal show because we couldn't find the stadium.... but we got free soda, so the jokes on them!!!"

[New display name]

My situation -

Entered SW

Re-charged drink refills & paid $7 & something cents.

Walk past do it yourself refill spot.

People helping themselves.

You feel like: (see below)

 

 

This is one of those moments

When you need a rape whistle.

Edited January 25, 2017 by YLFATEEKS