Adam

I though it was because during the day the structure is subject to heat which would cause the structure to expand. So do structures really move toward the sun? And for what reasons? Is Alex correct?

Hahahaha, Alex that’s the funniest thing I have heard. Could that mean you are wrong yet again? It has nothing to do with a magnetic or gravitational force. When metal is heated the atoms get excited and vibrate further apart which causes the metal to expand. This is why the tower would bend. At night time since the sun is gone, they can take it down safely.

Yea I think they are. Someone leaving the ride when the boat is just about to go down the big drop would be catastrophic. Or someone trying to stand up on the drop. But I don't think they are used to prevent you from "flying out".

Hey Mark, There is a single pull down steel lap bar for each seat (usually two passengers per seat) and I have been told (by joz) that it is a redundant system used to prevent you leaving the boat.

Hey Macboy, I don't work for Dreamworld so I can't tell you anything about when the ride will reopen from its annual maintenance but I can tell you that there are heaps of other things to do at Dreamworld and the last few times I've been there I didn't even bother going on it. If you have been to Movie World, and been on Wild West Falls, then you would be a bit disappointed with Dreamworld's log ride. Have fun on the 11th anyway.

Daniel's an awesome dude. He wouldn't do something like that. If this could not have been prevented by ride staff, then why was Disney ordered by DOSH to retrain the ride operators and draft new procedures? Are you actually reading what I am writing? If DOSH didn’t believe this to involve the operators in any way, shape or form, then why have changes been made? You don’t change something that works Alex. Alex, some of your arguments are good, yet some are stupid. One or your arguments is that the operators didn't think the noise was dangerous - that is a very good argument, yet the other argument - if a train is full of passengers and in operation, the train should wait to return to the station before the ride is closed (and train removed) - is just stupid. If Disney doesn’t close a ride in a potentially dangerous situation just because it is loaded with passengers – then this would have to be the worse safety procedure in use. Whether a ride is full of people or not, when it’s got to stop, it’s got to stop. Maybe Alex, that’s why Disney was ordered to draft a new procedure? Alex, this is really stupid. And yes, I know when the noise occurred. It occurred before the train derailed and killed an innocent man. If the noise was acted upon in the appropriate way (as is outlined in the new and safer Disney manual) the ride would have closed when the unusual sound was heard, and I’m pretty sure that when a ride is closed, it can’t derail (unless the ride was closed as the train entered an uncontrolled track section and derailed shortly after – but this was not the case with Big Thunder Mountain). Where is the factual evidence that Disney had the correct procedures in place and the ride operators knew exactly what to do? Are you saying that you can discount a DOSH report with your own evidence? DOSH performed an intensive search on the ride Alex, and they (not me) concluded that Disney ride operators had not been properly instructed by Mr Disney. Case closed. If you want to argue with DOSH, their website is here.

If your going to keep an attraction running just to keep guests happy when your endangering their lives, it’s not the right way to go about it. The train was making an unusual sound. What could this sound be? Well, it could have been a number of factors as you suggest, but is a train supposed to make this sound under normal operation? Does it always make unusual sounds? Is it worth the risk of running this attraction when it would take less than an hour to remove this train from the track and restart the ride? Not according to DOSH and Disney’s new ride policy. It’s a theme park; safety is and should always remain the number one priority. However, it seems Disney did not properly educate their operators. If something is wrong with an aircraft, do they continue to fly it so their customers don’t get angry, or do they delay the flight to fix / further inspect the aircraft? Saying a ride shouldn’t close as it would annoy guests is absolutely ridiculous. Alex, I was not making a smart-arse comment towards Richard when I said this. I simply wanted him to reply as to whether he agrees or rejects my reasoning as to why this isn't correct procedure. If he didn't "understand" or thought I was crazy then I wanted him to reply, it was not meant as offense. If this yellow card system is so great, tell me why DOSH ordered Disney to close the entire ride when a train makes an unusual sound? Could it be that the later method doesn’t cause death? I understand what the yellow tag system is Alex, but in the interests of safety, if something is not operating correctly, it should be dealt with immediately. But again, the reason it wasn’t was because Disney employees didn’t know what to do if a train wasn’t sounding normal, so they resorted to the yellow tag system. I don’t think they will make the same mistake again. Alex, if the only way to remove a train from Big Thunder Mountain without the ride having to complete a full circuit with passengers is to shut it down, then it is necessary. What you are suggesting is that when they yellow tag a train, the operators are taking a gamble as to whether the train will de-rail before it returns to the station? What exactly do you mean by standard procedures? You claim it not to be the fault of Disney yet you say if standard procedures were followed the accident would not have happened. You claim yellow tagging is a way of removing a dangerous carriage from service, yet passengers were boarded onto this train before the "danger" (dangerous train) could be removed. It's not quite the same, if the ride was closed the train could be removed without having to juggle the fate of human lives. Of course they did. It wasn’t their fault. As I repeat – there was no clear procedure for what they should do, yellow tagging it was basically their only option. It’s Disney’s fault. Yellow tagging it was their best option. But what I am trying to say is "it's not THE best option". At the time, they were not clear on procedures, but if they had been educated on what to do, then I don't think they would have yellow carded the train. Personally, If I was waiting for Big Thunder Mountain, I would rather be turned away or having to wait a little longer than bleeding to death. And also, if I was operating the ride I would rather deal with angry guests (even if inspection showed nothing wrong with the ride) than having to deal with the death of someone, on my ride. DOSH put the accident down to two reasons - poor maintenace and incorrectly trained staff. If the ride operators were told to close the ride if they sensed something irregular (e.g. unusual sounds), do you seriously think this man would still be dead? If the answer to this question is yes, then it was not the fault of Disney. I say no. When the unusual sounds were heard the ride operator would have closed the ride as correct procedure should have outlined.

I'm glad we have reached an agreement scott

Thanks Daniel Scott, how can you be tired of my questions? You haven’t answered any of them. If you don’t want to discuss stuff with me then don’t go into threads that I have started. Simple, don’t read them Scott.

There is no doubt about it that the accident was a result of poor maintenance but every press release and report also outlines that the operators were not instructed on how to handle the situation. Richard, “yellow tagging” a train was the wrong thing to do. As the reports above outline, the operators had no clear procedure to follow so they simply “tagged” the train for removal. This was not what should have been done in this situation. Yellow tagging a train that made an unusual noise was not correct procedure, it was simply a rough judgement made by ride operators. If the noise had been acted on in the correct way the ride would have closed. Understand? It seems the Division of Occupational Safety and Health disagrees with you, the safest and most logical thing would have been to shut down the entire ride immediately – yet this was not done as there was no procedure in place (as is evident in the above reports extracted from various sources). While the ride operators did not cause the catastrophic mechanical failure that killed the young man while riding on Big Thunder Mountain, DOSH clearly outlined that the appropriate safety procedures and policies were not in place. If the procedures recommended by DOSH had been enforced before this accident, this man would still be alive. Situation on Big Thunder Mountain before DOSH recommendations...A strange noise was heard on the train The ride operators didn't know what to do so they simply "yellow tagged" the train Train derails and kills a guest Ride is out of service for six months Same situation after DOSH recommendations...A strange noise was heard on the train The ride operators decided to stop the entire ride immediatly and remove the train from the track rather than "yellow tagging" After a short closure, the ride is reopened, everyone still living and happy

Thanks, Do the doors before the main drop open as you begin to move forward or when the turntable has finished it's rotation? Or is it before that?

It seems to me something was wrong.

I’m sure it would be harder for the ride operators to handle annoyed guests than to live with the consciousness of indirectly killing someone. What do you think? Again, I hardly think the boss would discipline them. If this is true then it seriously makes me sick. Safety is, and should be, the number one priority with theme park attractions. Let's hope Disney will lift its game and get its priorities right. Even if the ride operators couldn’t have prevented this (although it sounds as though proper procedures were not in place) then I still believe it to be the fault of Disneyland Anaheim. After all, it's their park, their ride, their maintenance staff. So, what is everyone else's favourite Disney attraction?

I agree with everything you have to say Clint. Very well put What do you mean by this? Are there two sets of doors? Thanks.

I think you did a very good job of summing everything up wonderbus While you may have had the experience of knowing what its like to have park guests annoyed about a ride closure, I'm sure its easier than dealing with the fact that someone died on a ride you were operating. If ride operators are too scared to use the emergency stop when something is wrong, then whats the point in having it? So I suppose the concrete evidence would be the train coming off the rails and killing someone? Reading the crash report it clearly states – “Thunder Mountain attraction personnel noticed unusual sounds on the train before the crash.” I’m sure the operators would know the sound difference between a rattling side-wheel and normal operation. I don’t quite agree with this. In an industry that is safety driven, Disneyland would never fire employees for stopping a ride if something was wrong, or they sensed something was wrong. These people are called operators for a reason. Now days, computers can control almost every aspect of a ride but they don’t get the same feel for a ride as the operators. Computers can’t hear and see certain things that ride operators can see and hear. Below is a quote from an interview with a roller coaster control panel engineer explaining how ride systems react in emergencies: If systems are programmed in a such a way, then surely employees would be trained to close the ride if they sensed something wrong? Again I repeat - Disney didn't have the correct procedures in place. End of story.

I still don't think real trees would be a problem, if they were, why would they have some there already? The sign idea could work as well. I think some holograms instead of the mirror with smoke and enhanced lighting effects would make the pre-drop section look great. But... it will never happen, as you say, it works how it is now.

Does it have slow sections of track to add to the story? And also, does it have a lift hill (or is it relatively flat)?

I don't think the trees would need to be any higher or more dense than the ones on the left (you can see from the image) but cost would be an issue as there would be no financial gain in doing this.

I am pretty sure they have cameras throughout the ride and if there was a storm large enough to bring down trees - the ride would be closed. I am not suggesting they plant trees, I am suggesting they trans-plant trees. They already have trees to the left of the track, but there is a gap on the right, adding trees here would not be such a problem (or the trees on the left of the track wouldn’t be there). Do you still think this is not possible?

I have read what you have to say Alex, and parts of it I agree with, parts of it I don’t. You have said this many times… But then you say… It seems to me Disneyland didn’t have all the correct procedures and policies in place - you even said it yourself. If the house killed them, then yes, I wouldn't buy it. I am not saying everyone would feel weird about getting into a ride that has caused the death and injury of innocent people but as for me, it's something I would think about. Again I quote Spencer - "Disney makes more money continuing to operate a ride they know is dangerous than shutting it down to fix the problem". The operators must have known something was wrong if they tagged the train for removal. You know, this is probably the most heartless thing I have ever heard. Your saying that people getting annoyed at the operators is worse than the loss of a human life?

I agree about the fire hazards you speak of with reinstalling certain effects (although I'm sure there is a safe way to add sparks). I'm not sure trees would be such a problem. There are already a number of trees (in the left of the picture) around the track. I have attached an image of how they could make it look better.

Ok, thanks. People are always complaining you can see the mountain structural supports (as is very evident in this photo). But it wouldn't take many trees to cover it up. Do you think anything will ever be done about it? Also, do you think the special effects on the final drop will be reinstalled?

The attached photo was taken from the Roller-coaster.com.au image gallery. Does the shed featured in the background enclose the first or second lift hill? Thanks.

Alex, you seem to claim Disney are doing everything they can to prevent deaths. Below is a report from someone who has worked for Disney for ten years. I guess this explains why the ride wasn't closed immediately. More information: http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Disney/.../DisDeaths.html

Hey Albert, Can I add an option C; have a fun and exciting day at Disneyland without dying or getting seriously injured. What do you think?