What can Movie World do to reduce the strain?

[rappa]

Like I said and I think someone else was getting at. 

I don't think that piece of theming is amazing enough that it's not worth sacrificing seeing it in order for better load times. 

 

Besides does anyone believe they are riding a subway anyhow given you just put on an over the shoulder restraint?

[joz]

I don't really want to de-rail this topic since ideas for how the park can handle the crowds it's getting is something I find very interesting.  But I will say this about the hiding superman thing; It's a petty thing, and I wasn't even sure if it was worth mentioning.  I mean no one who is 140cm+ is going to think 'Oh Superman is on the back all the time?  Illusion ruined!', but on the other hand, that IS the point of all the themeing that they went to the effort to put in.

I also don't thing having it visible will really help efficiency, the video explains the process reasonably well, and the queue is below the level of the platform, making it difficult to see what's going on anyway.  Vote 1 themeing intergery!

[buzzkill13]

I'll also add that the ride would be heavily approved by DC Comics and it's more than likely a licensing related thing where they request superman not to be visible unless he is flying or something 

[Richard]

I think there's enough omissions in the theming -- like bright red track in the subway section that could have been black or grey -- that losing the "reveal" wouldn't be a big loss to me if it had an impact on ride efficiency. While I think the ride would benefit from a more open style of station, I think there are operational issues that could be fixed that would have a much bigger impact. The real killer for this ride's capacity is firstly the pointless unload station and the amount of time it wastes during one-train operation most of the year. Other than that, the sheer amount of time that trains sit idle in either station for the whole process is ridiculous. Disney, Six Flags, Universal, Cedar Fair etc. would never devise operations procedures that have so much dead time, yet this is one of those things where our parks know better.

Seeing those figures on staffing levels for the ride over here are enlightening. Six staff on a ride that I doubt ever tops about 600pph (three-minute dispatches during peak trading period seems about right)?!?

[WalleyWorld]

It's a real shame that WVTP's don't put more time and money into improving their ride operations; or building e-ticket rides that have higher capacity. Capacity and queue experience imo should be top priority when designing a ride. I've always been frustrated with Superman's queue experience and its operations.....as it could be done a lot better. As Richard has said above, just look at Disney, Universal, Cedar Fair, ect. for inspiration. One of the main reasons I loved Disneyland was because of their operations.....everything was so smooth and efficient!

There are some really great suggestions in this thread; kinda impressive for a small group of enthusiasts. It just shows how much we all want MW to be the best it can be. And if we, as guests, can identify flaws and suggest plausible inexpensive solutions; surely park employees have identified the same problems and suggested the same solutions. What's stopping them from improving their park and making a guests day more pleasant? It's not difficult to understand that long lines = unhappy quests. If the managerial staff at MW really wanted to make a difference, they would have already.

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Yeah look Rappa is on it here - the efficiency gained (as well as the loss of illusion) isn't worth spending thousands on electrostatic glass (although if they were going to do something about it, that would be it - cool futuristic technology and absolute wow factor! - nice suggestion @Slick)

The thing is - I remember a time when we praised Movie World for installing high capacity attractions, and lambasted dreamworld for not doing the same. One of our praises was Superman Escape - how can we now be complaining about the ride's poor capacity? The only thing that has changed is staffing levels and motivation. Clearly then - this is what needs to be fixed first.

[New display name]

@Richard Where do the stats for rides like Wild West Falls come from?

Capacity (per hour)

1440 people per hour

[Richard]

3 hours ago, AlexB said:

One of our praises was Superman Escape - how can we now be complaining about the ride's poor capacity?The only thing that has changed is staffing levels and motivation.

So much of the current capacity woes at VRTP stem from ridiculous policies rather than any discernible changes in staffing levels. Loading Batwing 4-at-a-time instead of 16-at-once for instance is a policy ostensibly aimed at keeping groups seated together but causes the ride to take what I'd consider an unacceptable capacity hit. 

It's a bit like the shouts for single/two riders. It works if it can be done in say 10 seconds. But beyond that the shouts get annoying and the delays become counter-productive.

@skeetafly - our capacity stats all come from manufacturer/park/official figures. The ride's original manufacturer specifications suggest an overall 45 second load/unload and dispatches at 20 second intervals. Most of these figures can be taken with a grain of salt unless the park is Cedar Point. 

[New display name]

Thanks Richard. 

I agree with your shout for 1 rider can be a time waster.  Having a train loaded in dispatch and waiting for 1 person to push past 40 people is slow.  

Just last week when I went on WWF they pulled me and my buddy trough the line to fill a boat.  The problem with that is by the time we got to the boat they had to dispatch the next boat empty because of the boats started lining up.   

I think the organisation of riders before they are loaded onto the ride is the most important thing to do to reduce times.

Another random skeet question for anyone that knows.  When a Roller Coaster has a separate unload and dispatch area, does this make a difference in reducing queue times?

[aaronm]

52 minutes ago, skeetafly said:

Another random skeet question for anyone that knows.  When a Roller Coaster has a separate unload and dispatch area, does this make a difference in reducing queue times?

If the ride has multiple trains in use I imagine it would save some time. Otherwise it slows the process down due to the extra added step to advance the train in between unload and load (e.g. Superman with single train operations, Motocoaster, Jet Rescue). 

I do find the Australian parks' aversion to allowing guests to group themselves a little strange. It seems to create work for groupers rather than improve operations, especially on rides like ToT2, and HWSW where a staff member has to escort riders to the loading area. 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

I wouldn't say i'm someone who 'knows' but i'm just posing my own thoughts to the "Skeet Question"

Separate load and unload platforms work where there are multiple ride vehicles, and the ride runs efficiently and to capacity.

Take Scooby for a local example - if the unload zone is ready to send empty cars forward as soon as the load zone is cleared, it works well. Unload is usually faster than load anyway, so in a 'bucket brigade' format, it should work well.

Rides like Big Thunder Mountain at DL Paris - running separate load unload platforms works well - again, where it is being run efficiently as less time is spent at the loading station. You can be unloading a train at the exact same time you are unloading one. Even when load and unload is simultaneous - like Bush Beast or Demon used to be - there is still a chance of a short delay where you're waiting for the previous rider to get their shit together.

If a train is unloaded elsewhere, operators at unload (if they're on the ball) can ensure loose items removed, people have left, all harnesses are up and ready etc.

I'm not sure i'm making my point, but consider this hypothetical:

• Viewed separately, an average rider takes 45 seconds to load.
• Viewed separately, an average rider takes 25 seconds to unload. The first 5 seconds are spent in the train.

In theory, a train can dispatch on a combined loading platform within 50 seconds. This is because the unloading guest prevents the loading guest from commencing load until the unloading guest is clear.

This is of course made worse by people who forget their bag, or for new riders who need to step across the train to drop loose items on the unload side, but if planned well doesn't take any longer than it takes to load the train.

This is also made worse by single person loading, rather than a 'per row' loading (ie: Sea Viper\CorkScrew versus Jet Rescue).

By splitting load and unload, you can unload a train at the same time. This in theory should cut your load time to 45 seconds... and because unloading is typically faster than loading, the train behind in unload should clear before the load station is clear... but in order to do this well - you should have a third train. The third train should be out on the track, running. It shouldn't be sitting in the brake run waiting for unload to clear.

This is where 'efficiently and to capacity' comes into question. Two trains can operate well enough with a combined load\unload station provided the ride itself takes long enough - i'm thinking about bush beast here, and on many occasions where the ops team could have the red train rolling out of the station just as the yellow train came to a stop on the brake run. this meant only a momentary pause in the E-brake section before they were rolling into the station.

but a separate station requires another train. There should always be at least one more train than there is station - depending on how long the ride is of course - the longer the ride (versus the load time) the more trains you can run... but the minimum ratio of trains should always be stations +1

[Richard]

Looking at the three Intamin coasters on the Gold Coast with functionally identical systems: Superman Escape, Motocoaster and Jet Rescue. None of these need two stations with only one train obviously. It's just wasted time, and all of these rides could almost certainly be reprogrammed to use only one station with only one train, which is the case the majority of the year. 

There's a good case for two stations on Motocoaster and Jet Rescue with two trains given the short ride time, but the longer cycle of Superman could certainly be handled with one station and industry standard dispatch times for an overall higher capacity and lower staffing requirement than with two stations. 

[New display name]

 

The reason I ask the question and I could be wrong is-   I’m just using the Logride as an example because what I’m talking about is over accentuated on this ride.  If the Logride had platforms on the other side of the load station would it be quicker, slower or the same to move a log on?  I know most of the time they don’t run an extra staff at the unload area but if they did would it be better to have that person in the load area getting people onto the log.  You wait to load looking back at the ride watching the ride stop, guest get out and then it has to get going again.  If it just had one stopping area then that would remove the log having to stop and start again.  I’m think the reason why you never have a log ready to go is that over the years logs have been removed and not replaced.  So where ride is easy to get off and not complicated like the motor coaster, would it not be quicker to have the staff member helping with the load and opening the gates as soon as it arrives?  If I remember correctly I think this is how the Thunderbolt ran in the beginning.

 

Richard you don't need to re-answer my post, you pretty much answered my post while I was writing the post and getting myself a beer.   It’s like we have a connection and you read my mind.  LOL

Edited January 18, 2016 by skeetafly

[rappa]

Superman needs the unload for its block system to allow a train to launch as soon as it advances from unload. 

There is no block between launch and inn load and no way to stop a train from entering unload. 

Without the unload station you wouldn't be able to launch until you dispatched a new train. 

 

Of course that doesn't mean you couldn't just use unload as a block brake and leave the guests on until the next platform. 

I think unload is for show more than anything on superman. 

 

I do remember though in its first year of operations it was amazing how fast that que ran through. 

[Inverted]

Personally I think the parks could introduce a different system than a fast pass system.

Id like to see everyone get equal opportunity to use the park as much as the next person.  Not give preference to people who have deeper wallets.  

How I would do this is give everyone a wrist band on entering the park with a barcode.

This code allows you to line up in a "First ride" line (which you would only get one per ride per day)

then have the second line for additional rides.

 

This would allow everyone a chance to ride the rides at least once in the day.  

If people wish to wait and ride again they should go behind people who haven't use that attraction that day.

The only question would be if the ride can put through the amount of gate entries on a particular busy day.

Just my opinion.

 

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

Too complicated IMO - you'd have bottlenecks at the scanner where people who didn't understand the system, or just wanted to beat it, would attempt to reride at that line all the time.

If you're going that far - just put a (original) Disney fastpass system in. One 'fastpass' at a time, for whatever ride you like, and your return time is subjected to current queue wait times. As soon as the system reaches capacity for the day, cut it off.

[MaxxTheMonster]

I just don't understand why there needs to be any sort of fast pass system.  There are queues for rides, you want to ride it you queue like everyone else.

The main problems which have already been mentioned are capacity, efficiency and variety.  They had big capacity attractions which were themed well and pretty immersive, now they don't.  This is a result of the GP wanting coasters and thrill rides which notoriously have lower capacity than some of their previous attractions.  The spiels and pre ride stuff, interactions with staff as a result helped forget you were technically still waiting to get on a ride or attraction (WWF video, LW video, LTRR, Batman Ride, Great Gremlin Adventure videos).

The VIP passes (which I have said before elsewhere, yes did get them through GFC) have flooded the park with the fact that again the GP now expect this low price for these tickets.  Long before they were released I remember being told they were looking into it but it would be at a cost equal to two annual passes but include annual entry to all three.  I can imagine if they tried to put up the pricings there would be massive backlash and complaining.  Look what happened when they removed the themed evenings from inclusion with the VIP pass and added a tier system to include it.

We know MW is limited or space so adding an attraction usually results in the removal of another.  People are not happy unless they have something to complain about.  Complain there are not enough thrill rides and coasters = park puts in more thrill rides and coasters = people complain the park is too busy as there are not enough high capacity attractions to deal with this.

[Richard]

Regardless of your stance on thrill rides and their dominance at Movie World, one thing you can't say is that they're not high capacity installations. To their credit, Movie World has always installed high capacity roller coasters. The current issue is that they're not run to anywhere near the capacity that they should, due largely to really dumb operating procedures.

Justice League was a decent attempt at a family-friendly dark ride. It's low capacity and also not particularly good so really not serving the same purpose that its predecessor or rides like Looney Tones or Gremlins did in that they were all (in their heyday) interesting rides with really high capacity.

It's also worth mentioning that aside from Superman Escape replacing the Special Effects show and to a much lesser extent Scooby-Doo Spooky Coaster replacing Gremlins (SDSC being a thrilling family coaster, Gremlins being a horrific dark ride) no thrill ride at Movie World has replaced a family ride.

The question is really whether having the extended pre-shows on rides and padding them out from 2-3 minutes to 10-15 minutes actually has a tangible effect on the park's ability to absorb people without feeling overwhelmed. My personal view on pre-shows is that they serve to make the last part of the queue a bit more enjoyable. They don't add time to the attraction so much as they take time away from the queue. A good feature to include if done well (even Disney and Universal struggle to make them compelling) but it's not that there's 50 more people on the ride because of pre-shows, there's just 50 less in the queue.

For the record, I'd love to see one or two high capacity, compelling family rides on the roster at Movie World.

[New display name]

 

I would love to see that too but going on MW current record they would stuff up the operation of any new ride.

The problem I have with fast passes is it affects other guest experiences.  MW & DW can only accommodate so many guest per ride a day.  If a fast pass rider ends up with an extra 10 rides a day then it takes the 10 rides away from other guest.

If the parks need to make this extra money I think putting up ticket prices and running on a Disney system would be better.

Fast Pass is like when you realise your Tim Tam packet now have one less in the packet it but you still have to pay the same price as you did before.

So what happens next year? Dose Arnott’s put up the price or do they remove another Tim Tam from the packet?

Edited January 20, 2016 by skeetafly

[New display name]

 

The problem that I have with queues is I get bored.  If I wait 1 hour in a MW line I think, F this but I can spend 2 hours in a Disney line and not think much about it.   The key to me is movement.  Every time I get into a Disney line it feels like I’m moving.  I don’t get the chance to get too bored because I am doing something by moving. MW queues on the other hand don’t move.

So now Skeet is stuck inline and it's not moving.   Skeet thinks F this.  It’s hot, the person in front of me smells and the 12 year old girls behind me won’t shut.  To top it off  the line looked like it was a 30min wait when I first lined up but I didn’t know that there were 100’s of more people in front of me in a virtual line from outer space.

Edited January 20, 2016 by skeetafly

[DaptoFunlandGuy]

1 hour ago, skeetafly said:

The problem I have with fast passes is it affects other guest experiences.  MW & DW can only accommodate so many guest per ride a day.  If a fast pass rider ends up with an extra 10 rides a day then it takes the 10 rides away from other guest.

I know it's just an arbitrary number for argument's sake - but given most fastpass 'return times' are at least 45-60 minutes away, you're not getting 10 rides in a 7 hour operating day... but i get your point.

Fact is though - in a 'classic' Disney fastpass system - everyone has that opportunity - nobody is disadvantaged by the 100 virtual riders in front of them, because they can also be one of those 100 virtual riders in front of others. Everyone is on a level playing field.

See, I view the 'classic' Disney fastpass system as a level playing field, and a way for you to ensure you definitely get on that one (or 4) rides you really wanted to make sure you got on this trip. Everyone has favourites... and everyone's favourites are different.

I like Space Mountain - so i'm not going to use my fastpass on Indiana Jones.

Here's a scenario (and this actually happened to me) to show why classic fastpass is good. I had precisely 1.5 days to spend in California Adventure last time i was there. It was my wife's first time, and Radiator Springs Racers was brand new. (spoilerised for those who don't want the whole story)
 

Spoiler

 

Stupidly, we had no idea about how new or how popular it was. our first day was a washout. the ride had almost a 4 hour queue. The Fastpass system for the ride was sold out for the day (this was about 11am, and the park was open until 10pm), and we couldn't possibly justify losing that much of our day waiting for it when there was so much to do. It was a rookie mistake that we didn't head straight for the fastpass station for this ride the moment the park opened - like apparently half the park had done.

We spoke to a cast member about it that afternoon (just conversationally), and they asked if we had another day planned at DCA. We'd wanted to spend another day at Disneyland, but she convinced us to come back in, early, wait for the rope drop, go straight to the FP queue for RCR and get a pass - then, no matter what time of day it was for, we could leave DCA straight away and parkhop back when it was time.

So we did, and we managed to secure a FP for 11am. It was i think just after 10 then, so we checked out the RCR standby queue - and given it was only 30 minutes, we figured we'd queue, ride, and then use our FP for a second ride.

We got 5 metres from the front of the queue when it stopped moving. 30 minutes turned to 50 minutes. then the ambient noise in the load area (the sound of idling engines) stopped. it was silent. the ride was broken and was being evacd. The ride was shut down for approximately 3 hours. We checked, and were told our FP would be honored if we came back later than the time on the pass. So we did. the queue was back to 4 hours by then.

If we hadn't obtained the fastpass, we'd have missed the ride altogether, and being such a new addition at the time, it was the one we really wanted to ride. We even made special efforts to get the FP in the first place...

 

This is the merit in the system. There are rides in both DCA and DL we didn't do on that trip. they were ones we weren't really fussed on... but my very long winded point is simply that a free for all system is fine as everyone has equal opportunity to take advantage, and therefore nobody is disadvantaged.

Passes that just allow people to skip the queue constantly are very poor form, as are the systems that require you to book 6 months in advance in order to get a spot on the FP queue are just ridiculous.As for pre-shows - i'm with you Skeet - if a ride had three queues, and you were periodically moving from one queue to the next - you feel like you're getting somewhere.

Spoiler

 

Batman Adventure had this exact system - outdoor queue, library pre-show, batcave pre-show - but you only ever felt like the outdoor queue was 'actual waiting'. The labour requirement for this also was quite low - you needed one operator to admit the queue, and interact in the library, then escort everyone to the batcave. once seated in the batcave, the recording took over, and the staff member could make their way back to the queue to start all over again.

For the cost of one staff member, you cut your 'wait time' down from 45 minutes to say - 15. Although people are still "waiting" to board the ride, the psychology of it means they don't feel like they are 'waiting'... and therefore leave the park feeling much better about the time they spent 'in a queue'.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2016 by AlexB
fix spoiler tags

[pin142]

Whilst talking about these upcharge systems in the parks, how many people here who are locals and have "annual" passes actually bother with them? I personally don't see the value and use a day at the parks to relax and go on the odd ride or two. If I was taking a friend to Movie World who isn't a local I would look at Fast Track but otherwise I would be saving my money for something else.

[downunder]

I went with a local mate just after Christmas, and we decided to splurge on fast passes (I've never done FP at Movie World, excluding Ultimate Tour at Halloween). He was shocked at how much we got done. But mostly they all go there to hang out and aren't as focussed on riding.

Ha, if the new world's best rollercoaster is a B & M, that will be a serious people eater.

[pin142]

On paper it would be but I am sure they will find a way to screw it up

[grrofunger]

i love fast passes, fuck lining up